Charge back on Square

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We have our first charge back using square.

As we figured would happen, the psycho-maniac-out of control guest that arrived here on NY's eve and never even saw the room, and went ballistic, and threatened us put in a charge back.

You know the old joke about the guy throwing a $20 into the outhouse? If not, read on...

"Why did you throw $20 bill in the outhouse Johnny?"

He replies "Because I dropped a quarter down the hole, and there was NO WAY I WAS GOING IN THERE FOR A QUARTER!"

Well NOW I wish we had charged both nights, we were kind and let them off by paying only for one. At the time we make decisions UNDER FIRE. Trust me when I say FIRE! Now we get to go through all of this for one night, vs two which they agreed to.

I will soon see it on TA I am sure, and will begin the battle there. Joy! Not only did they ruin out night, our weekend, our week, our month, our entire season AND YEAR...but now the fun with them keeps on and on...as ALL bad guests infect you!

I will keep you updated.

Meanwhile Back to Square:

Square chargeback was simple and easy. It requested JPGS of GIFs etc of your policies, what they agreed to, etc. That was EASY TO DO IN REZKEY btw!  I made a PRINT SCREEN of the GENERAL POLICIES and another of the CANCELLATION POLICIES, and then saved their reservation itself as a DOC and made it a JPG.  Then put in my simple explanation and hit send. 

Personal note:

You know I was thinking about 2013, we actually had ZERO NO SHOWS for the entire year, I was proud of that, then this hit me in the head like a cast iron fry pan!

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white pine's picture
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Hi JB

When you said charge back I am assuming it was a dispute resolution request....How did that work out?  I have heard for a dispute they will freeze an account.  Not sure if that means the transaction or if you can no longer process other transactions?   Also, is there a way to print out a rec't for those who don't want an email?  (Remember I am tech impaired)

Thanks!

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gillumhouse's picture
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When I run a charge on Sq uare, I put in the notes the name of the room they were in and the date of the stay in hopes that will help if I ever have a problem.

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white pine wrote:

Hi JB

When you said charge back I am assuming it was a dispute resolution request....How did that work out?  I have heard for a dispute they will freeze an account.  Not sure if that means the transaction or if you can no longer process other transactions?   Also, is there a way to print out a rec't for those who don't want an email?  (Remember I am tech impaired)

Thanks!

Still waiting. Yes disputed the charge, as I knew they would and makes steam come out my ears ever time I even think about it.

In any chargeback they take the money back, and then if you win they give it back to you again. So that has happened.

I print out a rcpt from my online program either rezkey or another I use. You don't have to print out a rcpt at all, I know plenty who don't.  When they get their cc statement it will say WHITEPINE LLC or whatever.

 

Today at a meeting discussing Blue Ridge Highlands, of which we are a part...

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I am of the print out inclined.  Seem to have guests who ask for them, use rezkey and do those who pay cash/ck.  I had read a retailer newsletter that said sq FROZE the ACCOUNT when a dispute on a charge arose.  It was a b&b situation too.   They did even cancel the account because she (owner) was frustrated with trying to get help.   Just didn't sound right to me.....apparently not the problem with you.   Hope your next guest is such a sweetie it makes it better.....

 

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Let me know if they post on TA - Chris and I have stayed at your place so we could honestly post a review to start burying it.

Riki

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Cheers!

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I looked I don't have a photo of it, I did ask you about it, as there were only two in stock I think. Popular items, anti alien brain sucking helmets, in Arkansas...

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Gentleman here from Canada yesterday told me of a seminar he recently went to.  There was a speaker that proved to everyone there just how 'safe' PNC really is.  He brought up a woman from the crowd with her purse, he walked by her with a tablet in his hand.  He then rattled off her parts of her CC#, pin, bank as well as address the remaining she read right there on the tablet.  

For everything created for security, they also know the work around even before it is released.  How quickly it gets into the wrong hands is up to how much $ someone is willing to pay. 

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copperhead wrote:

Gentleman here from Canada yesterday told me of a seminar he recently went to.  There was a speaker that proved to everyone there just how 'safe' PNC really is.  He brought up a woman from the crowd with her purse, he walked by her with a tablet in his hand.  He then rattled off her parts of her CC#, pin, bank as well as address the remaining she read right there on the tablet.  

For everything created for security, they also know the work around even before it is released.  How quickly it gets into the wrong hands is up to how much $ someone is willing to pay. 

This is why you have to wrap your wallet or credit cards in tin foil.

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Madeleine wrote:

This is why you have to wrap your wallet or credit cards in tin foil.

My sister also wears a tin foil helmet. I think JB has a photo of it.

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Arks:

Someday I would love for your sister to meet my cousin.  I think my cousin could hold her own smiley

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Arks wrote:

Madeleine wrote:

This is why you have to wrap your wallet or credit cards in tin foil.

My sister also wears a tin foil helmet. I think JB has a photo of it.

I was trying to avoid mentioning the hat...

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Arks wrote:

My sister also wears a tin foil helmet. I think JB has a photo of it.


Now these are officially the times when a newcomer stops by they may think we are a wee bit odd. I am in Virginia, you are in Arkansas, and oh yeah it's your sister. 

For full disclosure: it is innkeep who is in Inndiana, who has the photo of YOUR SISTER in the alfoil hat. 

(I can't even believe I just typed that - oi veigh. JB)

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Joey Bloggs wrote:

For full disclosure: it is innkeep who is in Inndiana, who has the photo of YOUR SISTER in the alfoil hat. 

Yes I know Innkeep has that one. I just thought you got a photo of some of her extra hats in her store when you were here. She keeps several in stock and has sold several, though mostly to folks under age 8. It seems kids are the only ones wise enough to know about alien mind reading tricks and how the foil hats block the evil forces...or something like that.

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Arks wrote:

Joey Bloggs wrote:

For full disclosure: it is innkeep who is in Inndiana, who has the photo of YOUR SISTER in the alfoil hat. 

Yes I know Innkeep has that one. I just thought you got a photo of some of her extra hats in her store when you were here. She keeps several in stock and has sold several, though mostly to folks under age 8. It seems kids are the only ones wise enough to know about alien mind reading tricks and how the foil hats block the evil forces...or something like that.

It seems your sister would get along well with the owner at this place

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copperhead wrote:

It seems your sister would get along well with the owner at this place

Cool! But my sister really doesn't get along well with anybody! Eye-wink

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its why im not a fan of CNP - big scam about 6 years ago was woman rang "my son and his girlfriend are coming to visit I would like to book a room for them and pay with my card" yes that's fine says reservations

an hour or so later couple turns up - mother is actually the girlfriend ringing from the car with a stolen card

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camberleyhotelharrogate@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

an hour or so later couple turns up - mother is actually the girlfriend ringing from the car with a stolen card

So they wouldn't know the PIN, I suppose.

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Exactly. I have been known to do a few things that they don't expect when trying to do CNP. For the most part I will simply turn them down or tell them that I accept it for the deposit, but they will need to pay cash. But I will ask them for the phone number of the bank from the bank of the card. I use a tool on the website of my CC processor that tells me which bank they are banking with and I can then check that phone number. They will be required to produce a passport and another photo ID that has their address. And that I will be doing a voice authorization with the bank on their arrival.

At that point, you can do a CODE 10 authorization, explain that it is a CNP transaction, the name on the card and the person making the reservation. I've had them transfer me to the security department at that bank to validate the information. I get charged for a voice authorization, but what thief is going to stand there while you do this. They want things to be easy peasy and I've just made it a long drawn out affair. And anyone knows that with a CODE 10, the CC processor will call the cops for you if they find out it's a stolen card. You have to answer only yes and no questions to get them to do it.

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The chip and pin would help a lot if the protest is that someone else used their card number (fraud), but don't see it of being of benefit if the protest is over something else, like Maddie mentioned: The rooms was dirty, it smelled bad, the plumbing leaked, the dog barked all night. In those cases, the question doesn't even come up about the card owner presenting their card at the business. That's a granted fact.

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Please keep us posted. I have been asked to do a Webinar in March on credit card processing - I am speaking to all the qual, non-qual, fees etc and why I have gone to using Sq uare. This is important info to go with that.

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gillumhouse wrote:

Please keep us posted. I have been asked to do a Webinar in March on credit card processing - I am speaking to all the qual, non-qual, fees etc and why I have gone to using Sq uare. This is important info to go with that.


Had a guest here that is in the merchant card business.  I used SQ to process her payment.  She asked how I liked it.  Told her I was VERY pleased as the system was straight forward and I preferred knowing exactly what fee I was paying. 

She said that she completely understood my reasoning. She continued and said SQ words well for small businesses under a certain (did not give#) dollar amount but that once you bypass that, the traditional system ends up a better deal. 
So since this person was not trying to sell me, I feel it was good info to keep double checking.

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Yes, that is one of the things I plan to incorporate into the webinar - the limits as some of those on this webinar MAY have sales over the linit. I could possibly if I had several Elopements in a month plus regular guests.

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Oh joy! angry
But I have been wondering how SQ would handle a chargeback.  I believe it is the CC co. (Visa, MC etc) who actually decide if the charge is legit or not.

Hope this goes smoothly for you.  It should go your way.  You have all your ducks in a row. 

It does bring the sting back to the surface doesn't.  Sorry!
 

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That is why I so want the switch to chip credit cards. Because when you pass it through, it validates that the card was actually there. Much harder to do a chargeback when you have proof that the card was in hand and they are trying to commit fraud.

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Sugar Bear wrote:

That is why I so want the switch to chip credit cards. Because when you pass it through, it validates that the card was actually there. Much harder to do a chargeback when you have proof that the card was in hand and they are trying to commit fraud.

Just had a chip card here today. 

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We're going to ask foreign guests if they want to use their chip cards here when we get someone here from away.

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Sugar Bear wrote:

That is why I so want the switch to chip credit cards. Because when you pass it through, it validates that the card was actually there. Much harder to do a chargeback when you have proof that the card was in hand and they are trying to commit fraud.

Coming soon to a country near you! End of 2015.

However, just because you ran a chip & pin card does not mean the guest can't file a chargeback and say the place was not as advertised or they were mistreated or fill in the blank.

Right now we could run a regular card, get a sig and still have the guest chargeback.

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Much much harder to do. You see, with the magnetic stripe, it doesn't actually prove that the card was there. The chip proves that the card was there, 100%. Chargebacks are pretty easy when you claim that you weren't there and the transaction processed as CNP (Card Not Present). But you have a LOT more to prove when you physically handed over the card to pay (and there is undeniable proof, since the card is encrypted and a copy cannot be made) and then make a claim later.

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I can prove a card was present when it is not a chip card.  Manually entered cc# do not print the name on the card - swiped cards do. 

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Still not proof. Someone can easily copy the data on the stripe and put it on another card. That's one of the reasons the US is being forced to switch to chip cards, since they can't steal from the ATMs in Europe & Canada, the criminals simply copy the magnetic stripe and "reprint" the card on a gift card in the US and use that at an American ATM. 

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Wow!  Good to know. 

 

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Sugar Bear wrote:

Much much harder to do. You see, with the magnetic stripe, it doesn't actually prove that the card was there. The chip proves that the card was there, 100%. Chargebacks are pretty easy when you claim that you weren't there and the transaction processed as CNP (Card Not Present). But you have a LOT more to prove when you physically handed over the card to pay (and there is undeniable proof, since the card is encrypted and a copy cannot be made) and then make a claim later.


A chargeback is not because they say they were not here, they are not saying they weren't here, they are using another "reason" seller misrepresented or similar. We are frauds, in other words.

 You know, remember the story how we moved the B&B on them...we are sneaky that way.

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Did they stay? I don't remember. If they did, there ain't nothing to dispute. 

gillumhouse's picture
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I thought you moved the mountains, not the B & B

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gillumhouse wrote:

I thought you moved the mountains, not the B & B

oh yeah, I was so sneaky I forgot what I moved... LOL!

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Only you are mighty enough to move mountains

Madeleine's picture
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Claims can still be made that are warrantless. 'The rooms was dirty, it smelled bad, the plumbing leaked, the dog barked all night.'

Not saying the person is saying they weren't there and the charge is fraudulent. Just that they want their money back because they are not happy. You can pay for something and then not have a good experience and want your money back. Or, pay for something because you had to pay a deposit and then not want to stay. Or not show up at all.

JB's person signed for the transaction. Handed over the card, it was swiped, and then signed for it. Now she wants her money back. It's not a CNP transaction. It's a dispute. At least that's the way I read it.

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They can try, but that's a LOT harder to do. In fact it's extremely hard to do, when you handed over the physical credit card for the transaction. They were there. They paid for the service. A commercial dispute is doing with the merchant directly, not via MC/Visa. 

Incidentally, if the guest in any way, shape or form suggests that they will do a chargeback, you can refuse to accept a credit card and insist on cash. Leaving without paying for a service is theft of service (and in some states actually criminal). The law does not obligate you to accept CC payments at all. 

Madeleine's picture
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OK, maybe in Canada it is extremely hard to do. Here, not so much.

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I cannot stress enough how important it is to have them use your online reservation page. Maybe this is why we had zero no shows and very few, I really want all bookings to come through the site, they KNOW we have their credit card, and they KNOW they agreed to the policies.

Older and wiser, that's me. It is just too important to skip this step, while trying to "BE NICE", being nice is what bites us every time.

BTW Two days in a row we have been nice, and allowed early check ins, 1pm on friday, 2pm on Saturday. Friday showed up at 5pm, Saturday showed up at 6pm. It is NOT a big deal, but if it prevents us from having a life, I would have been mad! The guests were just being guests, doing things, seeing things, whatever. So we need the policies as guides, moreso than bars on a prison cell!

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Joey Bloggs wrote:

BTW Two days in a row we have been nice, and allowed early check ins, 1pm on friday, 2pm on Saturday. Friday showed up at 5pm, Saturday showed up at 6pm. It is NOT a big deal, but if it prevents us from having a life...

Would a modest early checkin fee help? They pay you, so it doesn't matter as much to you if they don't show up early.

Just need to come up with wording to present it. It would be tempting to go into all the reasons early checkin is hard, hence the fee, but that gets to be too many words.

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This is my spiel when someone requests an early check in: "We are happy to do early check ins if the room is ready and we are back from running errands.  Please call us as you come over the causeway (which is about 10 minutes away), to ensure this is the case."   The email confirmation specifies a check in time of 4 PM to 7 PM, and to call ahead if arriving early. 

I rarely get the call.  I can plan my day, not waiting around for people.  If they call and I'm not here, I'm not here.  If I'm here, and the room is ready, I check them in early.  Easy peasy.

Good Luck with the charge back, although you don't need it.  You are more than covered.  I'll wish you more luck with trying to forget about those guests.  Jerks!

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Arks wrote:

Joey Bloggs wrote:

BTW Two days in a row we have been nice, and allowed early check ins, 1pm on friday, 2pm on Saturday. Friday showed up at 5pm, Saturday showed up at 6pm. It is NOT a big deal, but if it prevents us from having a life...

Would a modest early checkin fee help? They pay you, so it doesn't matter as much to you if they don't show up early.

Just need to come up with wording to present it. It would be tempting to go into all the reasons early checkin is hard, hence the fee, but that gets to be too many words.

It was just an off season gesture, yeah come on by early...not a big deal. If it were in a busy season "getting stuff ready and breathing" is a big deal.  I don't want to be unfriendly. Not in this. Just sharing... I don't want to offer anyone early check in when we are busy, we can't do it. I have help now, my daughter, but that is sometimes more work than help.

Arks's picture
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The fact that Square asked for the evidence gives hope. Good luck, and let us know how it goes! 

The bright side, for some, will be that it spurs them to make sure their policies are plain and up to date. 

I'll bet some business owners have actually traveled to confront people like this, and if they have not, I'll bet they wanted to!

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