Beating a dead horse

28 replies [Last post]
Morticia's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

Sorry to bring this back up but I just got my renewal for bandb.com. Last year I wrote on my cheat sheet that I paid $269. This year's renewal is for $349. Did I get that wrong last year? Write down the wrong amount? Or did the rate really go up 30%?

__________________

Never judge a person's story by the chapter you walked in on.

 

Offline
Joined:
09/30/2008

Wow, I have been riveted to this forum bouncing from one topic to another. I should be asleep, but I just started reading today, and this is like being addicted to a soap opera. I actually made some comments to different topics, and now I see that my assessments were correct. I really enjoy the innkeepers, but the hot air blowing from Eric and his gang makes me frustrated. After reading this topic I can go to sleep, because you innkeepers have nailed all his attributes right on his head!!! (And I am sure the holes were already there....)

inncogneeto's picture
Offline
Joined:
08/31/2008

That's just it, you make a lot more than $250 a year off of us once you've gouged us for all the commission fees for your online rez and GC programs!

I think you need to listen a little more closely, it's just not worth it to us any more! We're tired of paying, paying paying.

And yes, we already know your answers to our complaints and have heard enough of how great you think your services are...we don't need to hear them again. Trouble is, we are your customers, and we don't think you are so great or that you are hearing us.

 

Eric Goldreyer's picture
Offline
Joined:
09/27/2008

Folks,

I would be happy to give you our thoughts on why we are worth it and how you should look at your return on your investment, not the investment, but it does not sound by reading this thread, that you guys care to hear it so I will save us both the time.

I am not sure what age has to do with understanding (or not) revenue and yield management, ROI, etc.  You would be amazed (or maybe you wouldn't) at how many innkeepers do not even track their web traffic so they have no way to make an intelligent informed decision as to ROI of their various directories investments and we travel across the country at our expense to present a seminar on that exact topic..   It doe snot matter that some innkeepers are in their 60s or 70's.  That does not mean they understand how to do this stuff by default.  Fortunately for us, most innkeepers see value in having someone help them understand how ot measure their ROI for this stuff and they are appreciative.  It's a two-way street.  We have said ALL ALONG that you should only do what works for you.  If we are not delivering business to you for what we charge - you clearly should not pay us as we don't deserve your money.  But if on the other hand, we are delivering $8,000 a year to you, we don't deserve to only make $250...

Regards,

Eric

 

__________________

Eric Goldreyer
Founder
BedandBreakfast.com

 

Offline
Joined:
06/24/2008

 

Eric, You really need to think about how you address these topics on this forum, or any other medium.  Your market is a small one with many new or hopefuls choosing this site to be one of their educational sources.  Yes, you do get beat up on this site from time to time but you should have the _____ to be able to maintain a professional manor in your replies, which do not include personal attacks and whining. 

Now getting to the topic at hand.  Raising rates 30% in one year is drastic, not many businesses would last long with increases like that.  One of your many reasons for the increase is your GC promotion, then you decide to raise your % on those, too.  You are nickel and diming those that feed you at every turn and many, as stated on this forum, are beginning to feel the affects in their pockets. 

There are many ways, I am sure, that you could cut your expenses and still maintain a great site and growing business.  You state in your post that "we travel across the country at our expense" well actually it is at the expense of your clients who are being charged more and more while you travel around the country giving seminars when you easily could place educational materials on your site as a 'bonus' to your members. 

John has mentioned on this forum the high cost of those 'review' postcards, another expense passed on in the 30% increase no doubt.  But as I am sure you have been made aware by post on this forum that the postcard idea is a mixture of success and failure.  It would be wiser to put in place test markets to test out new ideas prior to a full (expensive) roll out.  I am sure that you and your staff are only trying to increase the value of being a member but this does not pan out when the following year, your rates increase 30% +. 

Your post also states "If we are not delivering business to you for what we charge - you clearly should not pay us as we don't deserve your money.  But if on the other hand, we are delivering $8,000 a year to you, we don't deserve to only make $250..."  Are you toying around with the idea of going to a % commission rather than a annual membership cost?  Hummmm, I have mentioned before on this site that most marketing classes preach the fact that for every $1 spent on marketing, you should make $10 profit for it to be considered a successful campaign.  So for a Silver listing, each member should be content if BandB.com solely produces $3,490 a year in revenue, and overjoyed if it produces more (this of course does not include GC, Featured Ads or any other of your tack ons).  So if you are ready to put your site to the test, (your money where your mouth is, so to speak) change it to a 10% commission based site and see how you do - and then all those members that you are trying to educate on ROI will taught by way of your site and how well it produces.

YellowSocks's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

THANK YOU for your post!!!  (And right on!)

Gosh, $3,490 a year in revenue... that would be, like, a LOT!

Wish I could fly to Vegas....

=)
Kk.

inncogneeto's picture
Offline
Joined:
08/31/2008

Yeah, and if you are lucky enough to make the $8000 through their online rez, you get to pay them $2400 in commission fees, yippee!

Morticia's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

inncogneeto wrote:

Yeah, and if you are lucky enough to make the $8000 through their online rez, you get to pay them $2400 in commission fees, yippee!

Are you kidding? Holy cow. I talked a local innkeeper out of using a system that was costing her 9% per rez. Apparently '30' is the number du jour.

Offline
Joined:
06/24/2008

Bree wrote:

inncogneeto wrote:

Yeah, and if you are lucky enough to make the $8000 through their online rez, you get to pay them $2400 in commission fees, yippee!

Are you kidding? Holy cow. I talked a local innkeeper out of using a system that was costing her 9% per rez. Apparently '30' is the number du jour.

I might add that there is a per month charge just have the online rez available - you pay whether it works or not....  I must add, in their defense, that some of that commission is split with hotels.com or one of the other sites that the rez came from.  I have not used their online rez service so can not comment further. 

Offline
Joined:
06/24/2008

Yes, YS it is a lot of money when you see it in black and white or even better when it is green in your pocket.  A lot of marketing companies (directories included) like to use the value of there rate based on # of room nights to pay for the service.  Wrong! 

First of all I am not out to break even!  I am in the business to make money!  By focusing on a marketing plan, I am out to turn a nice profit or it is not of value to me.  Their statement of #room nights = cost of marketing infuriates me as they only look at the gross value not the net for each room rented.  Not to mention the fact of the time it takes to add and edit the listings when things change. 

...Vegas - just one of the many trips he and the others 'bare' with to help OUR businesses.... LOL    Sure they are constantly beating the desk and pavement for the industry while there, too! 

JunieBJones (JBJ)'s picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

Copperhead wrote:

Yes, YS it is a lot of money when you see it in black and white or even better when it is green in your pocket.  A lot of marketing companies (directories included) like to use the value of there rate based on # of room nights to pay for the service.  Wrong! 

First of all I am not out to break even!  I am in the business to make money!  By focusing on a marketing plan, I am out to turn a nice profit or it is not of value to me.  Their statement of #room nights = cost of marketing infuriates me as they only look at the gross value not the net for each room rented.  Not to mention the fact of the time it takes to add and edit the listings when things change. 

...Vegas - just one of the many trips he and the others 'bare' with to help OUR businesses.... LOL    Sure they are constantly beating the desk and pavement for the industry while there, too! 

Maybe he can sit in on the OJ trial.  LOL  Actually the OJ is off for the day due to a Jweish Holiday.  My parents traveled to Vegas (right now) and Mom wanted to sit in on it.  SOL.

__________________

"What the country needs is dirtier fingernails and cleaner minds." Will Rogers

 

Offline
Joined:
05/30/2008

Eric Goldreyer wrote:

Folks,

I would be happy to give you our thoughts on why we are worth it and how you should look at your return on your investment, not the investment, but it does not sound by reading this thread, that you guys care to hear it so I will save us both the time.

I am not sure what age has to do with understanding (or not) revenue and yield management, ROI, etc.  You would be amazed (or maybe you wouldn't) at how many innkeepers do not even track their web traffic so they have no way to make an intelligent informed decision as to ROI of their various directories investments and we travel across the country at our expense to present a seminar on that exact topic..   It doe snot matter that some innkeepers are in their 60s or 70's.  That does not mean they understand how to do this stuff by default.  Fortunately for us, most innkeepers see value in having someone help them understand how ot measure their ROI for this stuff and they are appreciative.  It's a two-way street.  We have said ALL ALONG that you should only do what works for you.  If we are not delivering business to you for what we charge - you clearly should not pay us as we don't deserve your money.  But if on the other hand, we are delivering $8,000 a year to you, we don't deserve to only make $250...

Regards,

Eric

 

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??  Excuse me, but you are not doing this out of some altruistic benevolence.  You travel to also market your directory and gift card program to the innkeeping industry.  Eric, you need to listen to yourself on this one!

__________________

People don't notice whether it's winter or summer when they're happy.
~ Anton Chekhov

 

gillumhouse's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

Eric,

If you delivered $8000 a year to my revenues I probably would not be Potty Mouth (auto filter)ing on here. If you brought in $5000 it would be lovely. I have tried to get across to you that not every B & B makes $50,000 per year even gross - we wish! Actually, no, I do not wish that. I actually need about $5000 more a year than I am bringing in right now - then I would have enough and I really do not want more than Enough.

Morticia's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

Eric Goldreyer wrote:

Folks,

I would be happy to give you our thoughts on why we are worth it and how you should look at your return on your investment, not the investment, but it does not sound by reading this thread, that you guys care to hear it so I will save us both the time.

I am not sure what age has to do with understanding (or not) revenue and yield management, ROI, etc.  You would be amazed (or maybe you wouldn't) at how many innkeepers do not even track their web traffic so they have no way to make an intelligent informed decision as to ROI of their various directories investments and we travel across the country at our expense to present a seminar on that exact topic..   It doe snot matter that some innkeepers are in their 60s or 70's.  That does not mean they understand how to do this stuff by default.  Fortunately for us, most innkeepers see value in having someone help them understand how ot measure their ROI for this stuff and they are appreciative.  It's a two-way street.  We have said ALL ALONG that you should only do what works for you.  If we are not delivering business to you for what we charge - you clearly should not pay us as we don't deserve your money.  But if on the other hand, we are delivering $8,000 a year to you, we don't deserve to only make $250...

Regards,

Eric

 

Who said you get to decide what % of my sales belong to you? With that logic, you should determine what you think is a fair % to get in exchange for the work you do (as you have decided with the Gift Card program) and go from there. That would certainly cost me a lot less than it does now and you'd actually have to produce to get paid.

inncogneeto's picture
Offline
Joined:
08/31/2008

>>That would certainly cost me a lot less than it does now and you'd actually have to produce to get paid.

THANK YOU!!

Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

Well if something doesn't happen with this economy..this may all be a moot point.   Our portfolio has dropped many many thousands $$$ in 3 months!!! Thankfully we are diversified and will ride this out...I hope so anyway

If people aren't traveling, there will be no income for innkeeepers, who will not pay for listings..etc etc..and so the ball bounces....

No credit anywhere..which I am convinced is the root of all of this anyway.  Can't afford to buy something??? Don't wait to save for it...put it on the credit card. Easy...make the miniumum payments no big deal if you are $25K in debt on the card. You can always declare bankruptcy. 

Sorry folks...it is all just getting to me !!!!

Offline
Joined:
05/30/2008

Do you remember the big long heated thread on the old forum about price? It was a thread that Eric from B&B.com started to whine about the way innkeepers don't give them respect (I'm paraphrasing). Then it turned into a lengthy debate about how they stick it to the little innkeeper and why don't they try to come up with a product priced appropriately for us. Remember that?

It was shortly after that thread that they jacked up their prices.

Morticia's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

happyjacks wrote:

Do you remember the big long heated thread on the old forum about price? It was a thread that Eric from B&B.com started to whine about the way innkeepers don't give them respect (I'm paraphrasing). Then it turned into a lengthy debate about how they stick it to the little innkeeper and why don't they try to come up with a product priced appropriately for us. Remember that?

It was shortly after that thread that they jacked up their prices.

Are you saying they are trying to get rid of us squeaky wheels and only keep the big places that don't notice a 30% increase because they get so much business from bandb not to mind?

Offline
Joined:
05/30/2008

Bree wrote:

happyjacks wrote:

Do you remember the big long heated thread on the old forum about price? It was a thread that Eric from B&B.com started to whine about the way innkeepers don't give them respect (I'm paraphrasing). Then it turned into a lengthy debate about how they stick it to the little innkeeper and why don't they try to come up with a product priced appropriately for us. Remember that?

It was shortly after that thread that they jacked up their prices.

Are you saying they are trying to get rid of us squeaky wheels and only keep the big places that don't notice a 30% increase because they get so much business from bandb not to mind?

I have no idea what they are doing. It is rare to see a business show so little regard to a market segment that they profess to be supporting. They refuse to acknowledge where they fail the small B&B-owner; they refuse to revise any of their product or service offerings to fit our segment; they take the lazy way out of rising expenses by passing them on to their customers instead of trying to put in controls; and then they have the gall to tout themselves as the benevolent saviours of the industry. If it isn't deliberate, as you suggest, then I can only suppose it is ignorance or arrogance, ineptitude or ego-tripping. It is bizarre. And utterly unlike any other customer/vendor relationship I have witnessed from either side of the equation.

swirt's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/17/2008

I think part of the argument was that they were now including inns.com in your listing.  So you got two listings for the price of one.  You'd have to look at your tracker to see if that logic makes sense.  If you get nearly as many visitors from inns.com as you get from Bedandbreakfast.com , then it might.

inncogneeto's picture
Offline
Joined:
08/31/2008

Inns.com doesn't show up in our stats. Can you track through their site?

Morticia's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

I show 42 visits since Jan1. I got more visits from SS's website and she doesn't charge me!

Offline
Joined:
06/05/2008

SHHHHHHHHHHH  don't give her any ideals!   LOL

inncogneeto's picture
Offline
Joined:
08/31/2008

HA!  No kiddin'!

gillumhouse's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

Thanks for the info. That seals it for me - as if I was waffling anyway. Not! I was talked down to once too often in a recent post.

As an old woman who has managed to get through raising a family on one income - mine - (with everyone in glasses, sports, music, and DH with his hobbies..), starting a business in Podunk, I find I resent a young man intimating that he needs to explain financial facts of life to me. I was balancing the financial facts of life in real time when he was in diapers assuming he is at least 40 years old! $349 for one Directory is not cost effective - and BTW, Pillows and Pancakes showed up in the top 10 on a search for B & B in my State the other day. Don't remember the phrase searched on off-hand, but thought I would mention it.

seashanty's picture
Offline
Joined:
06/02/2008

it was 349 when i joined this year

the bronze level at 149 is so much lower but is useless in my opinion because it offers no link to inn's website.  without that link, why list?

JunieBJones (JBJ)'s picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

seashanty wrote:

it was 349 when i joined this year

the bronze level at 149 is so much lower but is useless in my opinion because it offers no link to inn's website.  without that link, why list?

Dead horse beating alert = BRONZE?  HA HA HA!  Now that is hysterical, or am I?

gillumhouse's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

Are you Silver level? Now I know I will not be renewing!!! I already work for a month for my taxes and 2 months for my hosting and web directories and a month for my insurance! When am I going to be allowed to work for me? If they are recognizing that "hard economic rimes are upon us" and we are expected to accept that 80% is better than no % with GC, sould not their rates reflect that a renewal at $269 is better than a non-renewal at $349?

Morticia's picture
Offline
Joined:
05/22/2008

Yes, that is silver. The platinum is $700+

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.