Zoning - Where we are - ADA compliance

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undersea

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Issues we face with starting our business, are mostly zoning (former model home - zoned commercial - for a builder that went bankrupt).
#1 Has been vacant for years. Zoning officer kept saying this, and it finally dawned on us and sellers that meant CO and any legal uses all expired.
#2 So we changed the offer so seller had to get both CO and approved for Single Family Residence (a permitted use). They had been selling "as is."
I have been avoiding spending any $$$ on lawyer, inspection, appraisal until I was convinced it would even be usable.
#3 Getting approved for B&B (a permitted use) is MY problem.
This is where my concerns are. When I called building inspector, he mentioned things like handicap ramp. He also mentioned drawings/architect. This is a 5-level split level, so not very practical for a ramp - one floor is parking lot level but rest of the building is not.
The federal ADA stipulates that owner occupied B&B with 5 or fewer rentals is exempt from ADA. I do not know if there will be additional state/county requirements. PA tends to have a more mild attitude than NY/NJ. Building has at least 5 rooms (one would be mine) and 3.5 bathrooms.
So sort of trying to figure out how to gingerly approach the inspectors and zoning officer, without spending $3000 on an architect. I get the feeling they want me to do the architect, and spend the money. Have already had multiple conversations and not want to piss them off...
 
In WV, a State that is usually fairly easy on regs, NEW construction/NEW use must meet all the requires. Here you would have to have sprinklers in addition to the smoke/CO detectors, etc.
 
gillumhouse said:
In WV, a State that is usually fairly easy on regs, NEW construction/NEW use must meet all the requires. Here you would have to have sprinklers in addition to the smoke/CO detectors, etc..
Click to expand...
When I conversed with the inspectors informally, he mentioned CO, extinguishers and smoke detectors, but not sprinklers. If I have to do sprinklers, I can live with that as long as the $6000 or so I saw in some estimates. But trying to put ramps to 5 "floors" - really a few steps between levels, would be undoable.
I also have some concerns about the concept of a second egress in bedrooms - did not discuss with inspectors yet. That bubbles up in some internet conversations, but a few rooms are in no way amenable to that. I doubt putting a chain or rope ladder out the window would qualify!!!
As I said, research and regulations are definitely still the wild card with this deal and plan.
 
But 5 guest rooms is not the sum total of all the plans, right? You're also adding some sort of dining and a salon. You need bathrooms (at least one) for those 2 enterprises. You can't have dining without a restroom. THAT may be the thing that puts you out of compliance if you have no ramps and ADA bathrooms for the dining part. Sure, that's down the road, but do you want to rip everything apart again when you get to that point? Depending on your location you may need a commercial kitchen and a fire suppression system for the cooking area.
If the ADA reqs say an owner-occupied 5 room or less B&B doesn't need to comply then you're ok. But not if you add on dining for anyone other than the B&B patrons.
No matter what the reqs say, when you are redoing the existing bathrooms and adding more bathrooms for the other rooms you should keep the reqs in mind because a fair number of guests need all the help they can get so buy high standing toilets, lever and not knob door handles, no deep tubs without grab bars.
The other things you mention are totally town/county related. You need it in writing no matter what it is. Fire marshal says you don't need a sprinkler system? You want that in writing, signed and witnessed. And if that fire marshal leaves before you get your COO, you start all over again.
seashanty mentioned problems she had with her place. She also had the state health inspector tell her something completely different from what I was told in the same state. The AAA inspector gave another B&B in the next town over from me a list of things they had to do to improve the property to be considered a 3 star property. Then she dropped them to a 2 star and gave them a year to 'fix' everything. They gave us the list. SAME inspector gave us 3 stars even tho we have the same 'deficiencies'.
We were told we have to have test strips for hand washing to ensure we have enough bleach in the water. We bought exactly what the inspector told us to get. Next year, new inspector tells us we bought the wrong strips. We bought exactly what the previous person said to buy.
Don't want to throw another one in there but have you talked to the zoning people about signage?
Get everything in writing.
 
Morticia said:
But 5 guest rooms is not the sum total of all the plans, right? You're also adding some sort of dining and a salon. You need bathrooms (at least one) for those 2 enterprises. You can't have dining without a restroom. THAT may be the thing that puts you out of compliance if you have no ramps and ADA bathrooms for the dining part. Sure, that's down the road, but do you want to rip everything apart again when you get to that point? Depending on your location you may need a commercial kitchen and a fire suppression system for the cooking area.
If the ADA reqs say an owner-occupied 5 room or less B&B doesn't need to comply then you're ok. But not if you add on dining for anyone other than the B&B patrons.
No matter what the reqs say, when you are redoing the existing bathrooms and adding more bathrooms for the other rooms you should keep the reqs in mind because a fair number of guests need all the help they can get so buy high standing toilets, lever and not knob door handles, no deep tubs without grab bars.
The other things you mention are totally town/county related. You need it in writing no matter what it is. Fire marshal says you don't need a sprinkler system? You want that in writing, signed and witnessed. And if that fire marshal leaves before you get your COO, you start all over again.
seashanty mentioned problems she had with her place. She also had the state health inspector tell her something completely different from what I was told in the same state. The AAA inspector gave another B&B in the next town over from me a list of things they had to do to improve the property to be considered a 3 star property. Then she dropped them to a 2 star and gave them a year to 'fix' everything. They gave us the list. SAME inspector gave us 3 stars even tho we have the same 'deficiencies'.
We were told we have to have test strips for hand washing to ensure we have enough bleach in the water. We bought exactly what the inspector told us to get. Next year, new inspector tells us we bought the wrong strips. We bought exactly what the previous person said to buy.
Don't want to throw another one in there but have you talked to the zoning people about signage?
Get everything in writing..
Click to expand...
salon - as I said, it is a 5-level split level. The lowest floor goes right into the parking lot, with zero steps. I plan to investigate using that room (500 SF) for 2-chair salon, small spa area, classroom, flex space, etc.. I plan full ADA compliance for that area only (again, commercial zoning); regardless of what they require, the entrance door needs to be widened. The govt has a nice tax credit and will pay $5000 up to $10,250 spend. That area has a half bath; I intend to enlarge it and put a very large shower that is ADA compliant. I could actually use it to handle a disabled guest sleepover.
dining - only for B&B customers. My current plan is to do nothing for the 80% that will be pure B&B. But again, the inspectors will have final say.
signage - this is a commercial property; there is already a large sign in the front yard. It also parks at least 50 people and has 15.5 acres+
the good thing is, that pretty much everything is "permitted use" as it is commercial - I bought the zoning book - couple hundred pages. The bad thing is, the uncertainty of what will be required from a code point of view.
 
In our state, any over 2 rooms kicks in ADA. One advantage in our state is that state regs are easily found on the state's website. Hopefully many of your questions can be answered there too. The only person I talked to in advance about specifics was the county health inspector. He told us what we needed for health regs and we built to suit. No zoning here.
 
Yes, these issues always show their ugly heads. That is why we stress ZONING each time someone comes on here looking for info on a new property.

Law on fire code and ADA codes is that Federal is mandatory. State & local laws can be more strict but can not be less strict than Federal.

Local zoning officials (here) seem to have a hard time grasping what a B&B is and what codes are needed. We had that trouble 19 yrs ago and it doesn't seem to have improved much since!
Personally I would have made the offer contingent on being able to get proper zoning for B&B use, that is unless you want the place regardless.
Have the zoning people put everything in writing... black and white with letterhead. Gov. employees have selective memories.
 
I agree with others that you need to get everything approved before you sign. Our offer on the land was continent upon the zoning allowing the B&B to be built. As for ADA requirements and other codes, don't just believe what you read because laws change all the time, especially as more and more fires kill people staying at hotels and B&Bs. Our local fire chief said we didn't need a sprinkler. I knew he was wrong because the Rhode Island night club fire had just happened and I heard rules were being rewritten. So I called the state fire marshall because if our local guy died halfway through my construction I'd be screwed. He said he wasn't surprised some local guys don't keep up like they should and that I did need the sprinkler system. We ran into trouble later holding the required amount of water and guess who was nice and gave me a variance - the state fire marshall, because I had been diligent in my planning and approached him for his expertise and he liked that. That saved us a ton on outdoor holding tanks.
As for it being empty so long and everything no longer approved, that does happen. A local B&B went into foreclosure. A friend bought it but it was inactive as a B&B for over a year so everything reverted to new rules. She had to install a sprinkler system in a 2 story victorian - it cost $40,000 she wasn't planning on but had no option -- my system was $60K -- so I'm not sure where you got the $6K number, that cannot be correct at all. Someone must have just thrown a number out there to you.
It sounds like you really have a ton of homework to do before you'd be ready to close on this piece of property. I wish you luck, but unless you want trouble and huge unexpected expenses later on, you'd better do the homework and get real quotes for the work.
 
this is the problem with not buying an existing b&b/inn ... zoning, permitting, fights by neighbors, 'promises and assurances' by town officials who have absolutely no authority to give the permission, etc.
we bought a place in deplorable condition but could work from there.
some things were maddening. i had to jump through hoops just to get permission for a sign and they came out and measured three times and then almost did not permit the sign. they would not let me put a sign up on the street level (entrance was around the corner) no matter what i did. they may have relented for the newest owner who kept filing petition after petition. i was frustrated at seeing 'illegal' signs all over the place but we were closely monitored being 'new' petitioners and going by the book.
the area of access from the parking lot had no stairs. i wanted to install stairs ... ADA regulations kicked in. NEW stairs, meant compliance and a ramp 150 feet long that would zig zag back and forth to accomodate the rise. this would have involved a front end loader and bob cat, huge amounts of lumber, architectural plans, permitting ......... $$$$
one day, working in the yard, i uncovered a set of old steps. buried. i started digging and found four steps. yes ... i could uncover and repair those as long as i changed nothing --- so, i did not have to put in the 150 foot ramp
i wanted to accomodate physically challenged guests and did so. on a few occasions, i would go outside with volunteers and physically carry someone in a chair into the building. not good! they knew this would happen but it was scary. but the cost and the regulations for making things ADA compliant was too much for a struggling business with major OTHER work to do.
i wanted to put an entrance / door back where it had been originally and that was now a picture window. NO. this would again be considered new construction. (see below) we started the petitioning process to prove that it was restoration, not new construction. i have no idea where that stands today as i no longer own the place. maybe they gave up. maybe they still are in the review process.
we desperately needed more bathrooms. imagine 8 guests sharing one bathroom! YES we could add bathrooms inside the existing walls of the guestrooms but could not move a wall, bump out a wall or this would count as NEW construction and we would have to install a sprinkler system. sprinkler sytems are great - but ballpark estimate on the low end was $25,000 - in 2006! we had a full basement, three floors of guest rooms, full attic, and a cupola where people could walk around. i did not have the finances for this. so we crammed new bathrooms into the guestrooms.
everything that made sense to me personally and to us as a business was denied or took a long time to get permitted or was way out of our budget.
i used to come in here and rage, fume or cry ... depending. then i'd settle my feathers and get to work
good luck!
 
i agree, mtnkeeper. i just amended my post as the figure quoted for a sprinkler system was in 2006. who knows how much it would be today?
i think aspirings get frustrated and find it hard to believe when we talk real numbers from our own experience. i know there are b&b's that open and seem to sail through the permitting process. but this was not the case for me. just trying to add a dose of reality. we all know it 'bites' ... hence the popular title!
 
seashanty said:
this is the problem with not buying an existing b&b/inn ... zoning, permitting, fights by neighbors, 'promises and assurances' by town officials who have absolutely no authority to give the permission, etc.
we bought a place in deplorable condition but could work from there.
some things were maddening. i had to jump through hoops just to get permission for a sign and they came out and measured three times and then almost did not permit the sign. they would not let me put a sign up on the street level (entrance was around the corner) no matter what i did. they may have relented for the newest owner who kept filing petition after petition. i was frustrated at seeing 'illegal' signs all over the place but we were closely monitored being 'new' petitioners and going by the book.
the area of access from the parking lot had no stairs. i wanted to install stairs ... ADA regulations kicked in. NEW stairs, meant compliance and a ramp 150 feet long that would zig zag back and forth to accomodate the rise. this would have involved a front end loader and bob cat, huge amounts of lumber, architectural plans, permitting ......... $$$$
one day, working in the yard, i uncovered a set of old steps. buried. i started digging and found four steps. yes ... i could uncover and repair those as long as i changed nothing --- so, i did not have to put in the 150 foot ramp
i wanted to accomodate physically challenged guests and did so. on a few occasions, i would go outside with volunteers and physically carry someone in a chair into the building. not good! they knew this would happen but it was scary. but the cost and the regulations for making things ADA compliant was too much for a struggling business with major OTHER work to do.
i wanted to put an entrance / door back where it had been originally and that was now a picture window. NO. this would again be considered new construction. (see below) we started the petitioning process to prove that it was restoration, not new construction. i have no idea where that stands today as i no longer own the place. maybe they gave up. maybe they still are in the review process.
we desperately needed more bathrooms. imagine 8 guests sharing one bathroom! YES we could add bathrooms inside the existing walls of the guestrooms but could not move a wall, bump out a wall or this would count as NEW construction and we would have to install a sprinkler system. sprinkler sytems are great - but ballpark estimate on the low end was $25,000 - in 2006! we had a full basement, three floors of guest rooms, full attic, and a cupola where people could walk around. i did not have the finances for this. so we crammed new bathrooms into the guestrooms.
everything that made sense to me personally and to us as a business was denied or took a long time to get permitted or was way out of our budget.
i used to come in here and rage, fume or cry ... depending. then i'd settle my feathers and get to work
good luck!.
Click to expand...
Had conversation with commercial inspector. Asked if I could pay them to do a pre-purchase inspection. They cannot, but suggested I have architect do walkthrough and give an analysis of what it likely needs.
There are no neighbors, except a small restaurant, this is commercial house.
It is my belief sprinklers not needed as long as each sleeping room,has 2 legal egresses.
 
undersea said:
seashanty said:
this is the problem with not buying an existing b&b/inn ... zoning, permitting, fights by neighbors, 'promises and assurances' by town officials who have absolutely no authority to give the permission, etc.
we bought a place in deplorable condition but could work from there.
some things were maddening. i had to jump through hoops just to get permission for a sign and they came out and measured three times and then almost did not permit the sign. they would not let me put a sign up on the street level (entrance was around the corner) no matter what i did. they may have relented for the newest owner who kept filing petition after petition. i was frustrated at seeing 'illegal' signs all over the place but we were closely monitored being 'new' petitioners and going by the book.
the area of access from the parking lot had no stairs. i wanted to install stairs ... ADA regulations kicked in. NEW stairs, meant compliance and a ramp 150 feet long that would zig zag back and forth to accomodate the rise. this would have involved a front end loader and bob cat, huge amounts of lumber, architectural plans, permitting ......... $$$$
one day, working in the yard, i uncovered a set of old steps. buried. i started digging and found four steps. yes ... i could uncover and repair those as long as i changed nothing --- so, i did not have to put in the 150 foot ramp
i wanted to accomodate physically challenged guests and did so. on a few occasions, i would go outside with volunteers and physically carry someone in a chair into the building. not good! they knew this would happen but it was scary. but the cost and the regulations for making things ADA compliant was too much for a struggling business with major OTHER work to do.
i wanted to put an entrance / door back where it had been originally and that was now a picture window. NO. this would again be considered new construction. (see below) we started the petitioning process to prove that it was restoration, not new construction. i have no idea where that stands today as i no longer own the place. maybe they gave up. maybe they still are in the review process.
we desperately needed more bathrooms. imagine 8 guests sharing one bathroom! YES we could add bathrooms inside the existing walls of the guestrooms but could not move a wall, bump out a wall or this would count as NEW construction and we would have to install a sprinkler system. sprinkler sytems are great - but ballpark estimate on the low end was $25,000 - in 2006! we had a full basement, three floors of guest rooms, full attic, and a cupola where people could walk around. i did not have the finances for this. so we crammed new bathrooms into the guestrooms.
everything that made sense to me personally and to us as a business was denied or took a long time to get permitted or was way out of our budget.
i used to come in here and rage, fume or cry ... depending. then i'd settle my feathers and get to work
good luck!.
Click to expand...
Had conversation with commercial inspector. Asked if I could pay them to do a pre-purchase inspection. They cannot, but suggested I have architect do walkthrough and give an analysis of what it likely needs.
There are no neighbors, except a small restaurant, this is commercial house.
It is my belief sprinklers not needed as long as each sleeping room,has 2 legal egresses.
.
Click to expand...
The money spent up front with an architect will be well worth it - you can see what will be doable and then approach the inspectors with a new plan. If you can't accomplish what you want, then walk away before you sign everything and are in on a project that will be ridiculously expensive and very time consuming to finish.
Even with two egresses, they can require you to have a sprinkler system!
 
undersea said:
seashanty said:
this is the problem with not buying an existing b&b/inn ... zoning, permitting, fights by neighbors, 'promises and assurances' by town officials who have absolutely no authority to give the permission, etc.
we bought a place in deplorable condition but could work from there.
some things were maddening. i had to jump through hoops just to get permission for a sign and they came out and measured three times and then almost did not permit the sign. they would not let me put a sign up on the street level (entrance was around the corner) no matter what i did. they may have relented for the newest owner who kept filing petition after petition. i was frustrated at seeing 'illegal' signs all over the place but we were closely monitored being 'new' petitioners and going by the book.
the area of access from the parking lot had no stairs. i wanted to install stairs ... ADA regulations kicked in. NEW stairs, meant compliance and a ramp 150 feet long that would zig zag back and forth to accomodate the rise. this would have involved a front end loader and bob cat, huge amounts of lumber, architectural plans, permitting ......... $$$$
one day, working in the yard, i uncovered a set of old steps. buried. i started digging and found four steps. yes ... i could uncover and repair those as long as i changed nothing --- so, i did not have to put in the 150 foot ramp
i wanted to accomodate physically challenged guests and did so. on a few occasions, i would go outside with volunteers and physically carry someone in a chair into the building. not good! they knew this would happen but it was scary. but the cost and the regulations for making things ADA compliant was too much for a struggling business with major OTHER work to do.
i wanted to put an entrance / door back where it had been originally and that was now a picture window. NO. this would again be considered new construction. (see below) we started the petitioning process to prove that it was restoration, not new construction. i have no idea where that stands today as i no longer own the place. maybe they gave up. maybe they still are in the review process.
we desperately needed more bathrooms. imagine 8 guests sharing one bathroom! YES we could add bathrooms inside the existing walls of the guestrooms but could not move a wall, bump out a wall or this would count as NEW construction and we would have to install a sprinkler system. sprinkler sytems are great - but ballpark estimate on the low end was $25,000 - in 2006! we had a full basement, three floors of guest rooms, full attic, and a cupola where people could walk around. i did not have the finances for this. so we crammed new bathrooms into the guestrooms.
everything that made sense to me personally and to us as a business was denied or took a long time to get permitted or was way out of our budget.
i used to come in here and rage, fume or cry ... depending. then i'd settle my feathers and get to work
good luck!.
Click to expand...
Had conversation with commercial inspector. Asked if I could pay them to do a pre-purchase inspection. They cannot, but suggested I have architect do walkthrough and give an analysis of what it likely needs.
There are no neighbors, except a small restaurant, this is commercial house.
It is my belief sprinklers not needed as long as each sleeping room,has 2 legal egresses.
.
Click to expand...
You belief counts for nothing. Get it in writing.
 

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