Legalities - holding a cooking class event / very short term room rental

Hi, folks
Trying to get an opinion on LEGALITIES of doing a few types of events. Appreciate any feedback.
In Pennsylvania code: "b&b is a private residence under 11 rooms for overnight accommodations where breakfast is the only meal served and is included in the price of a room."
1) Holding a cooking class event. If I or guest chef, is it illegal for guests to sample the food?
2) Bringing in ordering outside food (lunch/dinner) for guests - pizza whatever. Legal if I provide free to guests? If we split the tab? If have them order it?
3) If rent room for part of a day and it is NOT overnight? (for multiple reasons, such as guests who want to rest for a few hours, such as part of a wedding). Or if guests extend their stay just a few hours? Must it ALWAYS be overnight?

you better check with PA B&B association. anything we tell you only applies to us and not you.

undersea said:

3) If rent room for part of a day and it is NOT overnight? (for multiple reasons, such as guests who want to rest for a few hours, such as part of a wedding). Or if guests extend their stay just a few hours? Must it ALWAYS be overnight?

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Just because someone rents a room doesn't mean they have to stay overnight.
But let's turn the question around on you -- are you going to rent a room to somebody for a few hours in the middle of the day, and then try to rent that same room to somebody else for that night? I kind of doubt it. Even if the first guest didn't stay overnight, you are still going to have to do a full change-over of the room before the next guest comes in. So the person you rented the room to for the middle of the day has effectively blocked you from renting that same room for at least one and probably two nights.
To reiterate, just because someone rents a room doesn't mean they have to stay overnight ... but I would think you would want to have minimum rent equivalent to a full night stay.

Harborfields said:

undersea said:

3) If rent room for part of a day and it is NOT overnight? (for multiple reasons, such as guests who want to rest for a few hours, such as part of a wedding). Or if guests extend their stay just a few hours? Must it ALWAYS be overnight?

Click to expand...

Just because someone rents a room doesn't mean they have to stay overnight.
But let's turn the question around on you -- are you going to rent a room to somebody for a few hours in the middle of the day, and then try to rent that same room to somebody else for that night? I kind of doubt it. Even if the first guest didn't stay overnight, you are still going to have to do a full change-over of the room before the next guest comes in. So the person you rented the room to for the middle of the day has effectively blocked you from renting that same room for at least one and probably two nights.
To reiterate, just because someone rents a room doesn't mean they have to stay overnight ... but I would think you would want to have minimum rent equivalent to a full night stay..

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Now, if you're willing to change the bedding.....
I had a woman's crew team take over three rooms for just a day. I fed them breakfast after my other guests were done. They had just driven in from a neighbouring town after competing in two early morning races. After breakfast, they went upstairs, showered and had a nap. They were done napping by 2. They had also agreed to use only one of the bathrooms. So, when they were done, I changed over the bedrooms (with help from DH) and scrubbed down the one bathroom. The people that checked in for that night were told that there might possibly be a slight delay, but would they like to sit out back and look at the ocean while enjoying a cold beverage? I didn't charge for a night's stay but I did give them a reduced rate (the women's rowing team)
It was a crazy day for me but was a bonus as they talked up our B&B on Facebook, liked all my posts, tweeted about us,etc.
So bottom line, are you willing to run run run???

Harborfields said:

undersea said:

3) If rent room for part of a day and it is NOT overnight? (for multiple reasons, such as guests who want to rest for a few hours, such as part of a wedding). Or if guests extend their stay just a few hours? Must it ALWAYS be overnight?

Click to expand...

Just because someone rents a room doesn't mean they have to stay overnight.
But let's turn the question around on you -- are you going to rent a room to somebody for a few hours in the middle of the day, and then try to rent that same room to somebody else for that night? I kind of doubt it. Even if the first guest didn't stay overnight, you are still going to have to do a full change-over of the room before the next guest comes in. So the person you rented the room to for the middle of the day has effectively blocked you from renting that same room for at least one and probably two nights.
To reiterate, just because someone rents a room doesn't mean they have to stay overnight ... but I would think you would want to have minimum rent equivalent to a full night stay..

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Of course, some rooms might have been empty that night otherwise. Obviously makes more sense in off season or other than Friday, Saturday night...

EmptyNest said:

you better check with PA B&B association. anything we tell you only applies to us and not you..

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Suspect many states have similar definitions

no way would i advertise very short term room rentals. no way. by the hour microstay ... not for me. i had enough trouble with neighbors as it was.
2cat_lady had lovely guests who stayed and left as promised. whenever i veered from the 'standard plan', it bit me.

Undersea, are you a member of PABBI? They might be able to help. The president, Dee Fegan, is a wealth of information.
I'm also in PA. As long as you pay your sales tax and any local occupancy taxes, I'd say that it doesn't matter how long/time period you're renting the rooms (overnight, hourly , or whatever)
As far as food, unless you have a commercially inspected kitchen, breakfast is the only thing you're allowed to fix and serve to guests. If they want other meals, I'd have it catered and tack it on to the bill.
Cooking class? Not sure about that one. There are a few B&B's in my area that do this. Not sure how they accommodate.

there might be zoning laws prohibiting room rentals for just a few hours. i would tread very lightly and carefully in this area.

Aussie Innkeeper said:

Undersea, are you a member of PABBI? They might be able to help. The president, Dee Fegan, is a wealth of information.
I'm also in PA. As long as you pay your sales tax and any local occupancy taxes, I'd say that it doesn't matter how long/time period you're renting the rooms (overnight, hourly

, or whatever)
As far as food, unless you have a commercially inspected kitchen, breakfast is the only thing you're allowed to fix and serve to guests. If they want other meals, I'd have it catered and tack it on to the bill.
Cooking class? Not sure about that one. There are a few B&B's in my area that do this. Not sure how they accommodate..

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Thx. Codes sometimes tend to be written in a way to make absolutes, and was curious how fixed the overnite wording was.

seashanty said:

there might be zoning laws prohibiting room rentals for just a few hours. i would tread very lightly and carefully in this area..

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That is for sure. I would hate to be thought of as the local "by the hour" and any B & B that does would be a disgusting example of the B & B industry. To accommodate a special event group - like the rowing team example - is different. On a regular basis, let's call it like it is - a HOUSE and the person that runs it is NOT called an innkeeper.

there are day use sites to list on ... but for a new place opening up i would not want people to question what kind of place i'm running. the implications are obvious. and you can't deny that some would be used for hookups, not just resting after a flight, etc. even the promoters of such sites have disclaimers.
for a large hotel, moving people in and out of rooms and getting them cleaned for the next checkin is a very different process than for a small b&b ... you need the staff to do it, the linens, everything. i found it challenging to get eight rooms ready for the night - i can't imagine trying to flip even one room twice in one day.

as EN says "anything we tell you only applies to us and not you".
But to respond ... "legalities" really do vary place-to-place, but more than "legalities", you will run up against "interpretations" -- it matters less what the law is than the way the law is applied to you.
To answer your questions you will need to know 1) what the zoning administrator thinks, 2) what the health department thinks, 3) what your insurance agent thinks, and 4) what your neighbors think. They are different and each one has to be happy with you.
A lot depends on common business practice in your area. Just because someone else can do something doesn't necessarily mean you can, but it is a good guide. We have a cooking school. It is common in our area: demo and serve the food. We keep it small and ancillary to our main business to keep it cool. We are upfront with the health department. We host the annual picnic for our 75 neighbors. We are explicitly insured for it.
BTW, what really can get a B&B in trouble is weddings. There you have 150+ people and alcohol, too many cars, loud music, late nights ...
If you have run the B&B for a year or so and you have proven to be a good citizen with #1 through #4 above, it is easy to add extras.
A B&B can be imaginative about additional business ventures - sidelines. But the core business has to be able to carry it. The extras have to be extra; spare change can add up nicely, but if someone tells you to quit doing something, you have to be comfortable running what you are left with: B&B.

Even if allowed legally by your state and local code it may be more important to make sure it is allowed by your insurance company. Google stories about Inns that have neglected this, like the Clifton Inn in Shadwell VA. They followed the law and lost everything because their insurance company said, you didn't alert us and buy additional coverage.

seashanty said:

there are day use sites to list on ... but for a new place opening up i would not want people to question what kind of place i'm running. the implications are obvious. and you can't deny that some would be used for hookups, not just resting after a flight, etc. even the promoters of such sites have disclaimers.
for a large hotel, moving people in and out of rooms and getting them cleaned for the next checkin is a very different process than for a small b&b ... you need the staff to do it, the linens, everything. i found it challenging to get eight rooms ready for the night - i can't imagine trying to flip even one room twice in one day..

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If a room is "booked" for a fee more than once in a day and there is not a cancellation involved our local code has a special label for the violation, we can be fined and must post signs saying we have been fined as a brothel or house of ill-repute for up to one year. It was passed in 1878.

This should all be regulated by whatever codes you operate under in your municipality or county.
For instance, in our municipality there are 3 levels of B&Bs and what they constitute is clearly spelled out. B&B homestays here (3 rooms and under) may not host any events at all, or serve any food other than breakfast to guests. B&B inns here may have ancillary restaurants which fall under all of the certificates of occupancy, codes, & health department regulations for any type of general use restaurant. Food service in a B&B inn without a restaurant is limited to breakfast & "snacks" which are served only to guests, so lunches or dinners would have to be catered in by, or purchased at, a licensed restaurant.
The municipality here does not spell out how a B&B inn can or should charge for breakfast and snacks. But, whatever is not included in the room rate (or paid to an outside source) is subject to all applicable taxes unless it's a fee for a service (i.e., room service delivery).
You need to check with your local regs....

Samster said:

This should all be regulated by whatever codes you operate under in your municipality or county.
For instance, in our municipality there are 3 levels of B&Bs and what they constitute is clearly spelled out. B&B homestays here (3 rooms and under) may not host any events at all, or serve any food other than breakfast to guests. B&B inns here may have ancillary restaurants which fall under all of the certificates of occupancy, codes, & health department regulations for any type of general use restaurant. Food service in a B&B inn without a restaurant is limited to breakfast & "snacks" which are served only to guests, so lunches or dinners would have to be catered in by, or purchased at, a licensed restaurant.
The municipality here does not spell out how a B&B inn can or should charge for breakfast and snacks. But, whatever is not included in the room rate (or paid to an outside source) is subject to all applicable taxes unless it's a fee for a service (i.e., room service delivery).
You need to check with your local regs.....

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I would have sworn I read this comment a couple of days ago, but it is dated today? *puzzled*