How to catch a thief?

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Very upsetting. Here goes. I work for a church, among other places.
Last Sunday when the treasurer opened an envelope of cash it was $50 less than the payer said was inside on Wednesday. Envelope was in an open mailbox in church office. We thought possible mistake by the payer. But .... Okay - we decided from now on to put cash in a locked filing cabinet, key in office desk. Office is locked.
Saturday morning, I locked an envelope with cash in the filing cabinet. Sunday morning, no envelope. There were other envelopes with cash in them of lesser amounts, they were untouched. Two persons have gone through the filing cabinet without finding the envelope.
1. I was the last person to admit to having the money
2. Cleaning person cleaned the church on Saturday. She has been working there three years with no prior issues. She might be bringing someone new in with her. I don't know.
3. To remove the money from the filing cabinet, thief would have to know we are putting money in the filing cabinet, get into the locked office, go to the desk, remove the key which is labeled, unlock the filing cabinet and steal the envelope, lock the filing cabinet, put the key back, and re-lock the office.
4. So ... immediate suspects are myself and the cleaning person, also person or persons unknown. No one has named names but I'm a realist. It wouldn't be fair to leave myself off the list.
What to do?
Have you ever used a nanny cam type of device? I was thinking of setting one up, see if anyone opens that filing cabinet or looks through the mailboxes.
We obviously have to do something completely different with cash receipts - I'd say we can't leave them in the church any more.
But I'd like to find out who is responsible. For everyone's sake.
Have you dealt with such an issue before?
 
I would think the camera might be a good idea.
What's the solution to keeping money in the office? Whose responsibility is it to make the bank deposits?
Why is there so much cash anyway?
Just saw on the news where people are putting in those cameras when their houses go on the market. Amazing videos of 'potential buyers' donning gloves and immediately rifling thru kitchen cabinets, closets and the fridge because that's where everyone keeps their medications. They were grabbing every pill bottle and stuffing them in their pockets.
 
Another thought - how about one of those small fireproof safes? The pastor gets a key and the treasurer gets a key.
Lock that in the file cabinet. The person seems to know better than to steal all the money. The first few weeks I'd leave the safe empty to see if it disappears.
But, it certainly seems as if the person doing the stealing already knows where to look. So, who knows where the money is being stored?
Anyone unhappy with you? Enough to try to get you fired?
 
The more I think about it, the more crazy I feel.
It's always been so casual ... usually there isn't much money around. Self help groups let themselves in and put a check or cash in an envelope and push it under the office door. But we've kept $50 in a desk drawer under the pencil tray in case someone came by looking for a handout. I'd give them $10 (not showing where it came from). That has been going on for years without a problem, although that money ran out recently and hasn't been replenished.
I suppose someone could be unhappy with me but not that I'm aware of.
The treasurer makes the deposits, I post them to quickbooks. Two people counted the money from the small event and I locked it away.
I wasn't at the church between Wednesday and the prior Sunday when the envelope was short $50, (not that I can prove that) but it's a 45 minute drive each way ... a lot of trouble to go to for me to 'lift' $50 especially when I wouldn't even have known there would be cash in the office. As for the second loss from the locked filing cabinet, there was a small event that people paid cash to attend. We (treasurer and myself) thought sure it would be safe for a day. I haven't been back to the church yet and want to pull apart that filing cabinet myself!
 
id get a nanny cam - sounds daft but I am with Agatha christie on this - its the suspicion of everyone and everyone suspecting everyone else that's worse.
 
I suggest getting https://www.amazon.com/Barska-Compact-Keypad-Depository-Safe/dp/B00BGIXZ7U/ or something similar. The key should be stored at the cleric's home, so it's not on premises. And only two people should have the number. Set up a camera, if you need to. But by not having the key on premises you really limit the chances of something happening.
You could conversely get something like https://www.amazon.com/Milockie-370111-Hotel-Safe-Lock/dp/B0042WWMA8/ that adds a second lock in front. So that two people need to be there to open it. Secure in that no one needs to be there to receive envelopes, but two people need to be there to actually get the envelopes out.
 
Okay, I probably look at things strange, I accept that fact.
Let's say you put a camera of sorts and catch me on film, what then? What's the cost of the camera system, if you see me at the counter and don't clearly see me remove and take money, what is the cost of liability if you make the accusation, but can't well prove? Are you going to put me in jail because I had an unspoken need or as a church do you forgive and offer help? Just some food for thought.
Generic's suggestion of a drop box that requires two keys, two people to open, rather like a safety deposit box, should eliminate the problem for the future
 
Jim we are totally changing things for future security. We have to. But there is a cloud of suspicion over two people (two who were known to be at the church alone on Saturday) who may be totally blameless. Three, if you count me as I was the last one known to have the money in hand. And what if Morticia is right that someone is trying to get me fired? I will not be doing any pointing of fingers - the church 'elders' are just planning better security. They do not plan to do anything else. This is me - and I may be wrong not to be able to let it go.
On Sundays, they leave the place wide open for someone from outside to wander in. Sometimes people do. All are in the sanctuary and the rest of the church is wide open to visitors, often including the office (I am not there to control this although I have asked that the office be closed and locked during service). It is the access of the locked filing cabinet with re-locking of the cabinet and returning the key to where it is stored that is so specific that worries me. There are several filing cabinets. This implies knowledge of where money was being held.
The pastor has a discretionary fund and the church has given financial assistance to those who need it. So yes, if someone was actually discovered to be stealing, they would offer help.
 
Jim we are totally changing things for future security. We have to. But there is a cloud of suspicion over two people (two who were known to be at the church alone on Saturday) who may be totally blameless. Three, if you count me as I was the last one known to have the money in hand. And what if Morticia is right that someone is trying to get me fired? I will not be doing any pointing of fingers - the church 'elders' are just planning better security. They do not plan to do anything else. This is me - and I may be wrong not to be able to let it go.
On Sundays, they leave the place wide open for someone from outside to wander in. Sometimes people do. All are in the sanctuary and the rest of the church is wide open to visitors, often including the office (I am not there to control this although I have asked that the office be closed and locked during service). It is the access of the locked filing cabinet with re-locking of the cabinet and returning the key to where it is stored that is so specific that worries me. There are several filing cabinets. This implies knowledge of where money was being held.
The pastor has a discretionary fund and the church has given financial assistance to those who need it. So yes, if someone was actually discovered to be stealing, they would offer help..
I totally understand the NEED to know - to only those who are aware of the theft - to lift the cloud of suspicion from the innocent. I would never want anyone to have the slightest thought that I was anything other than totally honest. I prize my reputation as I am certain you do yours.
 
Jim we are totally changing things for future security. We have to. But there is a cloud of suspicion over two people (two who were known to be at the church alone on Saturday) who may be totally blameless. Three, if you count me as I was the last one known to have the money in hand. And what if Morticia is right that someone is trying to get me fired? I will not be doing any pointing of fingers - the church 'elders' are just planning better security. They do not plan to do anything else. This is me - and I may be wrong not to be able to let it go.
On Sundays, they leave the place wide open for someone from outside to wander in. Sometimes people do. All are in the sanctuary and the rest of the church is wide open to visitors, often including the office (I am not there to control this although I have asked that the office be closed and locked during service). It is the access of the locked filing cabinet with re-locking of the cabinet and returning the key to where it is stored that is so specific that worries me. There are several filing cabinets. This implies knowledge of where money was being held.
The pastor has a discretionary fund and the church has given financial assistance to those who need it. So yes, if someone was actually discovered to be stealing, they would offer help..
Please don't take me wrong I understand how you must feel, wouldn't want someone thinking I was guilty either, but like a bad review it is very difficult to defend ourselves without it seeming like we are making excuses, don't know if there is an easy answer.
Where I worked in my last job we had cameras in our buses, multiple cameras, expensive systems that recorded actions of the driver, passengers and outside of vehicles. When it worked it was helpful, if it didn't work you only found out when you needed to see the pictures.
The usefulness also depended on the individual need, an accident at 2PM Monday wasn't hard to find, on the other hand a guy in a green shirt that maybe took a tablet belonging to another rider sometime yesterday or day before, you could watch the videos for hours and if you blinked at the wrong moment you missed it, I'm just saying video isn't easy and would easily cost more than the loss or a long term solution.
Managed theatres in the good old days, some would use a drop safe in the box office, I think some gas stations use similar, small heavy metal box bolts to floor, slot near the top that the cashier to insert a package of bills, but only the manager(s) had the key(s) to open the door on the bottom to remove the cash. In your use anyone could drop an envelope or money in, but only an approved person(s) with a key on their person could remove money.
 
You're right, of course.
I work so hard for these people and I'm grossly underpaid. Yet I have a deep affection for them and a loyalty to them - I consider many in the congregation my friends. It breaks my heart and my spirit to have this happen and I want no one to doubt me or anyone else. I keep hoping that the money will turn up. No one has accused me ... but still.
The other thing is the doubt, worry and suspicion I feel. Years ago, $3000 worth of tools belonging to my late husband were stolen from a locked job site. He said, after dealing with the loss and the hassle of replacement and insurance claims, the worst of it was looking at other carpenters and craftsmen, friends and acquaintances, wondering who took his tools. The place had not been broken into, it was someone with a key, like him. The police told him it was obviously an inside job. So sad.
Drinking wine late into the night isn't helping.
cry_smile.gif
 
Jim we are totally changing things for future security. We have to. But there is a cloud of suspicion over two people (two who were known to be at the church alone on Saturday) who may be totally blameless. Three, if you count me as I was the last one known to have the money in hand. And what if Morticia is right that someone is trying to get me fired? I will not be doing any pointing of fingers - the church 'elders' are just planning better security. They do not plan to do anything else. This is me - and I may be wrong not to be able to let it go.
On Sundays, they leave the place wide open for someone from outside to wander in. Sometimes people do. All are in the sanctuary and the rest of the church is wide open to visitors, often including the office (I am not there to control this although I have asked that the office be closed and locked during service). It is the access of the locked filing cabinet with re-locking of the cabinet and returning the key to where it is stored that is so specific that worries me. There are several filing cabinets. This implies knowledge of where money was being held.
The pastor has a discretionary fund and the church has given financial assistance to those who need it. So yes, if someone was actually discovered to be stealing, they would offer help..
Our collection money goes into sealed security bags right before it is taken to the altar and then put into a safe. We require 3 people be present when counting monies and the deposited to bank.
our pastor is the only one with access to petty cash in case of a need arising.
 
You're right, of course.
I work so hard for these people and I'm grossly underpaid. Yet I have a deep affection for them and a loyalty to them - I consider many in the congregation my friends. It breaks my heart and my spirit to have this happen and I want no one to doubt me or anyone else. I keep hoping that the money will turn up. No one has accused me ... but still.
The other thing is the doubt, worry and suspicion I feel. Years ago, $3000 worth of tools belonging to my late husband were stolen from a locked job site. He said, after dealing with the loss and the hassle of replacement and insurance claims, the worst of it was looking at other carpenters and craftsmen, friends and acquaintances, wondering who took his tools. The place had not been broken into, it was someone with a key, like him. The police told him it was obviously an inside job. So sad.
Drinking wine late into the night isn't helping.
cry_smile.gif
.
Kind of like having things walk off from the inn - even if it has no value to you it's the idea that someone you spoke with, someone you treated kindly, someone who slept in your home stole from you.
 
You're right, of course.
I work so hard for these people and I'm grossly underpaid. Yet I have a deep affection for them and a loyalty to them - I consider many in the congregation my friends. It breaks my heart and my spirit to have this happen and I want no one to doubt me or anyone else. I keep hoping that the money will turn up. No one has accused me ... but still.
The other thing is the doubt, worry and suspicion I feel. Years ago, $3000 worth of tools belonging to my late husband were stolen from a locked job site. He said, after dealing with the loss and the hassle of replacement and insurance claims, the worst of it was looking at other carpenters and craftsmen, friends and acquaintances, wondering who took his tools. The place had not been broken into, it was someone with a key, like him. The police told him it was obviously an inside job. So sad.
Drinking wine late into the night isn't helping.
cry_smile.gif
.
Kind of like having things walk off from the inn - even if it has no value to you it's the idea that someone you spoke with, someone you treated kindly, someone who slept in your home stole from you.
.
I draw the line at petty theft. If you need tissues, just ask, don't steal.
 
It happened to me. Long ago, I worked in a small office that had use of an larger office's systems - faxes, copier, etc. I was talking to someone in the large office who told me they had an office pool on the upcoming game. Just chit chat.
Next day, I heard the pool had been stolen. The next day, my access to the office was taken away. I was so innocent, it took me months before I figured out that a caused b. By then, it was too late to say anything.
It sucks to be in this kind of position.
 
It happened to me. Long ago, I worked in a small office that had use of an larger office's systems - faxes, copier, etc. I was talking to someone in the large office who told me they had an office pool on the upcoming game. Just chit chat.
Next day, I heard the pool had been stolen. The next day, my access to the office was taken away. I was so innocent, it took me months before I figured out that a caused b. By then, it was too late to say anything.
It sucks to be in this kind of position..
see this is what I was saying - who is innocent is almost more important than who is guilty. Did we ever know if who did it was found? we don't need to know who it was but just that it was resolved or we hope it was.
 
It happened to me. Long ago, I worked in a small office that had use of an larger office's systems - faxes, copier, etc. I was talking to someone in the large office who told me they had an office pool on the upcoming game. Just chit chat.
Next day, I heard the pool had been stolen. The next day, my access to the office was taken away. I was so innocent, it took me months before I figured out that a caused b. By then, it was too late to say anything.
It sucks to be in this kind of position..
see this is what I was saying - who is innocent is almost more important than who is guilty. Did we ever know if who did it was found? we don't need to know who it was but just that it was resolved or we hope it was.
.
I was never told if they did find the person. I was 'branded.' They laid me off shortly thereafter and a month later called to ask me to train my replacement. I declined their kind invitation.
 
It happened to me. Long ago, I worked in a small office that had use of an larger office's systems - faxes, copier, etc. I was talking to someone in the large office who told me they had an office pool on the upcoming game. Just chit chat.
Next day, I heard the pool had been stolen. The next day, my access to the office was taken away. I was so innocent, it took me months before I figured out that a caused b. By then, it was too late to say anything.
It sucks to be in this kind of position..
Never a good thing when this kind of stuff happens since everyone involves becomes a suspect and trust breaks. I would say it probably was the one who told you about it. Just my hunch.
 
It happened to me. Long ago, I worked in a small office that had use of an larger office's systems - faxes, copier, etc. I was talking to someone in the large office who told me they had an office pool on the upcoming game. Just chit chat.
Next day, I heard the pool had been stolen. The next day, my access to the office was taken away. I was so innocent, it took me months before I figured out that a caused b. By then, it was too late to say anything.
It sucks to be in this kind of position..
Never a good thing when this kind of stuff happens since everyone involves becomes a suspect and trust breaks. I would say it probably was the one who told you about it. Just my hunch.
.
We learned that from the Godfather.
 
Oh my - such a difficult situation. We have had exactly the same thing at our church when my husband was a caretaker. He to had keys to the area there fore was a possible suspect.
Petty Cash money kept disappearing from the main office. Went on for 6 months until the administrator and head caretaker had a hidden camera installed. Not even the pastoral staff or office people knew it was being installed. One day, YES ONE day later, the thief was caught. It resulted, not in a dismissal/membership revoked/firing, but in an opportunity for the staff and administration to witness to grace and forgiveness. The church used the alms fund to get the culprit addicition counselling (off site), financial planning and marriage counselling. Only those involved/accused where updated on the situation after it was resolved.
8 years later they continue to be active members of the church community.
 
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