This message is for Jay at PAII and John at Bandb.com and any other industry folks - Have you see this website? http://www.airbnb.com/
I see they have the list at the bottom as an endorsement - what can WE do to stop this nonsense? We don't need illegal - unlicensed, uninspected, unapproved uninsured, unsafe phony B&B's being promoted to the public - any advice?
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"What the country needs is dirtier fingernails and cleaner minds." Will Rogers
The thread was old, new things can come about since then, in fact a few of us are listed with airBnB. So bringing it all back might give some newer details that may be helpful.
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Kindness not only makes the coffee. Kindness says good morning.
Just to mention it, people, but this is necroposting. Most forums have a rule about necroposting. (Might I suggest that a necroposting rule be enacted and a topic be locked after 90 days or so? Or am I doing a complete faux-pas by suggesting this? (I apologize if I'm going beyond my bounds by suggesting this.)
I don't consider it necroposting. I would only suggest that if the original post contained dated material that was no longer applicable. Other than that, I would rather have an older thread re-visited than a new post appear and rehash the exact same stuff. I created this as a forum rather than a chatroom because I think there is value in both lasting content and asynchronous discussion.
I welcome all newbies to the forum, and do not want them thinking they can't comment or question on something interesting just because it is a week, month, or year old.
Yes it is true a lot of these older threads bubble up unexpectedly because some spammer comes in and drops a link to leather handbags or matress covers or something, but our members zap spam here so rapidly (thanks everyone) that most people never see the spam that caused the old post to re-surface. If it re-ignites a discussion.. great, that is the purpose of the forum (unless of course the duscussion was a contentious one that lead to hurt feelings or hot tempers, those are best left sleeping or locked)
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and asynchronous discussion.
Boy are we good at that!
The other side of the coin is that since a subject has already been discussed, people read the thread and are afraid to necropost (for example, I won't ever necropost) and a new and lively discussion doesn't come up because it's been discussed before.
You can post a link to the old discussion, but that doesn't bring today's users forward. Another way of saying it is that YOU today aren't the same as you were in 2009 when that last discussion was started and died. 20 years ago the Internet wasn't important. Three years ago Twitter wasn't. Life changes.
As for chat rooms... that's a completely different animal. I haven't been in one in ten years (and I used to run BBSes.)
The other side of the coin is that since a subject has already been discussed, people read the thread and are afraid to necropost (for example, I won't ever necropost) and a new and lively discussion doesn't come up because it's been discussed before.
You can post a link to the old discussion, but that doesn't bring today's users forward. Another way of saying it is that YOU today aren't the same as you were in 2009 when that last discussion was started and died. 20 years ago the Internet wasn't important. Three years ago Twitter wasn't. Life changes.
As for chat rooms... that's a completely different animal. I haven't been in one in ten years (and I used to run BBSes.)
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"Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." Hebrews 13:2
Just to mention it, people, but this is necroposting. Most forums have a rule about necroposting. (Might I suggest that a necroposting rule be enacted and a topic be locked after 90 days or so? Or am I doing a complete faux-pas by suggesting this? (I apologize if I'm going beyond my bounds by suggesting this.)
Sorry...didn't mean to offend anyone by "necroposting" (a new term for me!). On other forums I frequent, particularly the Hatteras forum, I have learned a lot by folks who resurrect an old post. In fact, I once saved over $12,000 by the resurrection of an "ancient" post because someone brought up an old issue that I was currently facing with an engine problem. I was ready to pull out the blower, supercharger, and two turbos. Instead, because a four-year-old thread that someone resurrected, I spent $8.35 instead of $12 grand, and fixed my problem. I also learned how to renew 30-year-old paint as opposed to spending $65,000 on a new paint job due to the resurrection of an old thread.
Point is...not all ressurections of old threads are evil or offensive. In fact....I was able to retrieve two photos of my place when she was brand spankin' new, 30 years ago while being delivered to Grand Isle, Michigan, because of an "ancient" thread. I am forever in that person's debt for providing me with that, despite the fact that I stumbled upon it years later. So, I guess that makes me a fan of necroposting. I'll try not to do that here. In other forums, old knowledge is quite valuable. At least is for me...to the tune of five figures out of my wallet!
How many of you have searched on "sheets" and found vaulable information on old threads? So, think about that before anyone goes "locking" threads due to age.
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Ang
www.sanctuarycharteryacht.com
58' Hatteras Motor Yacht
Miami, FL
Holy Cow!! 
That's an interesting bit of news on how much you saved by reading something "old". Good insight....thanks.
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"You can't blame gravity for falling in love." ~ Albert Einstein
Please, no one was offended at all. First, it was a spam that necroposted, not you. This is an open discussion, in no way would I (or I think anyone) want to inhibit your participation. We are just discussing if it is better to lock a thread and start a new discussion or keep old discussions open and promote necroposting. Everyone should ALWAYS feel free to participate in any way. It is only by interacting that we all improve.
What we are talking about is the pros and cons of opening a new thread to discuss the matter as new, versus posting to an old thread. As I have said, I would never post to an old thread. I would read it, when looking for information, but I would think it's a finished subject and never revive it.
Sorry...didn't mean to offend anyone by "necroposting" (a new term for me!). On other forums I frequent, particularly the Hatteras forum, I have learned a lot by folks who resurrect an old post. In fact, I once saved over $12,000 by the resurrection of an "ancient" post because someone brought up an old issue that I was currently facing with an engine problem. I was ready to pull out the blower, supercharger, and two turbos. Instead, because a four-year-old thread that someone resurrected, I spent $8.35 instead of $12 grand, and fixed my problem. I also learned how to renew 30-year-old paint as opposed to spending $65,000 on a new paint job due to the resurrection of an old thread.
Point is...not all ressurections of old threads are evil or offensive. In fact....I was able to retrieve two photos of my place when she was brand spankin' new, 30 years ago while being delivered to Grand Isle, Michigan, because of an "ancient" thread. I am forever in that person's debt for providing me with that, despite the fact that I stumbled upon it years later. So, I guess that makes me a fan of necroposting. I'll try not to do that here. In other forums, old knowledge is quite valuable. At least is for me...to the tune of five figures out of my wallet!
How many of you have searched on "sheets" and found vaulable information on old threads? So, think about that before anyone goes "locking" threads due to age.
I totally agree with you! (Sanctuary)
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Usually what happens is someone new comes across something they want to comment on. If they start a new thread on something that's 'been done' everyone jumps on them and says to read about it before starting it up again. Can't win.
If a topic is hot again it'll get posts. If it isn't it just sinks into obscurity. If it's a troublesome topic it can be closed to comments.
Then again, sometimes it just a spam hit that brings a topic to the fore and no one reads the original date. I'm not sure if locking threads after 90 days is good or bad. I'm pretty good at ignoring stuff.
All in all I think this forum is so well designed. Hopefully nobody will really claim that their day is wasted because they stumble on an old thread. It doesn't take that much effort to skip the threads you don't want to read, and I'll say that I can't always remember what was a hot topic months ago, and sometimes I pick up more stuff the second time around.
I am with you on this but don't know if possible. SWIRT could answer this. Though as some folks have said, they may have missed it previously.
I however find that these old things usually show up because of a spam which was posted.
Sorry to those folks........but I find it annoying to have people comment on stuff that is 6 months old or older.
I am with you on this but don't know if possible. SWIRT could answer this. Though as some folks have said, they may have missed it previously.
I however find that these old things usually show up because of a spam which was posted.
Sorry to those folks........but I find it annoying to have people comment on stuff that is 6 months old or older.
What I wish we could have here is an option to "check off" a particular thread so that it no longer shows up in our list of "Unread B&B Topics".
It's an annoyance to have to click through threads that are of no interest (like this one) to get to the meat of the forum.
What I wish we could have here is an option to "check off" a particular thread so that it no longer shows up in our list of "Unread B&B Topics".
I agree with you PT, JB asked for something similar a while back. I haven't found an existing module that offers that feature, and I can't think of a way to program it without dramatically increasing the size of the database and increasing the amount of queries and processing that the site would have to do to decide what it could show you. I'm sure there is a way to do it without taxing the system, but I haven't come up with it yet.
What makes them automatically illegal across the board? Aren't short or long term rentals, and what's taxible, regulated by the various states? Not that I really care about those folks taking away my business. The $45/night folks aren't taking anything away from me. A couple of weeks ago, we had a $675 tip for one 8-hour day. So, clearly, I'm not inquiring out of concern that I'm going to lose anything to the $45/night folks. You can't even get me to walk down the dock and open the gate for $45. 
But, different kinds of accommodations may be subject to different regulations.
Me, for example, I'm not required to collect occupancy tax; we are not subject to inspections other than the occasional boardy by the Coast Guard which has yet to happen; we don't need any special licensing other than an ordinary business license, etc., but that doesn't make us illegal. Heck, we're not even subject to property tax of any kind! I do collect sales tax; I do have commercial insurance (that's where we pay through the nose at five figures annually!); and I do have a commercial state watercraft registration. Yeah, I get it why WE are different, but the same - because we float instead of resting on footers and foundations, we're viewed as a charteryacht rather than lodging, although it's all the same thing - you sleep here, eat here, and pay a daily fee for that. You can even drink here without a liquor license.
Unless or until "BnB" or B&B" is copyrighted, trademarked, or otherwise, there will be little anyone can do to stop anyone from using those terms. Afterall, they could mean something different like Boat & Breakfast, or for those topless events Boobs & Breakfast (yeah, it happens! Not here, but it happens. LOL There is a niche market for that - just google "boat in the buff" - it's more common than you'd think).
What I'm getting at - I wonder if these other kinds of rentals fall within a different category which allows them to do what they do without it being a crime to do so? I don't know the answer...just wondering. I'd have to go research it and don't have time right now - guest just arriving - gotta run.
Actually the big problem is that they are not collecting (or else not turning in) taxes and in my area, say they are advertised for $45 and people think it is an actual B & B I appear to be raking it in or being WAY over-priced to those who do not know what a B & Breally is. And surveys have shown that many people do NOT know what a B & B actually is.
Just thought I would add my 2 cents. I just joined airbnb in February and it has so far been great. I just list one room on it. I have had one guest so far from Europe that was great and looking forward to another reservation in June. I've been getting a lot of inquires though the site for the room I have listed.
Hi
The reason why airbnb has it's name is that they originally started as Air Bed & Breakfast. They shortened it to airbnb because of branding, but then realised they could get more places to list if they didn't force them to offer breakfast. We're guessing by then they thought their brand was too strong to change their name, so they ended up sticking with it. This is a problem on a lot of B&B sites - the sites claim to advertise bed and breakfasts, but then advertise hotels as well. In some ways they do this to increase profits, but then the question is, are they destroying the experience for people actually just looking for B&Bs?
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BnB Edition is a resource for bed and breakfast and inn owners. We provide practical and inspirational ideas for managing your B&B. All ideas welcome!
www.enjoybedandbreakfast.com/bnbedition/
For anyone new:
When posts come up again with old post dates, that means someone has gone in and edited what they wrote. Just an fyi, as I saw this come up today (05/12/2010) and saw nothing new, and don't really want to reread everything to figure it out. (I didn't change anything on my post).
For anyone new:
When posts come up again with old post dates, that means someone has gone in and edited what they wrote. Just an fyi, as I saw this come up today (05/12/2010) and saw nothing new, and don't really want to reread everything to figure it out. (I didn't change anything on my post).
Spammer was deleted today. That's why the thread came up.
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Spare me the perky.
If it is more than a few months old, FORGET IT....MOVE ON...it means someone has posted a spam message which has been deleted and this brings the thread up to the top again.
We don't need to be going through this old stuff over and over again...but we also don't want to delete some stuff either.
and here it is again - another timely Inn the news:
Extra income from a now and then bed and breakfast
Petaluma Argus Courier
Records Another option is to run a bed and breakfast out of your home, making available a room or two to travelers now and then. This website enables you to ...
note from JB - ONCE AGAIN THEY ARE SAYING THEY ARE A BED AND BREAKFAST - for those who say "Awwww who cares" WE DO. We don't need unlicensed uninsured B&B's giving us all a bad rap!
Another option is to run a bed and breakfast out of your home, making available a room or two to travelers now and then. This website enables you to list your offering. I looked at rooms available in San Francisco and Corvallis (where a relative lives) and was impressed with the variety and pricing of what is available.
I'm an avid AirBnB guest and host who also loves a good BnB. I found AirBnB when I needed housing for a sailing class in San Francisco and couldn't afford the traditional options, but realized from that first stay that I got a lot more (new friends, local perspective, one-on-one attention, a sense of what it was like for another young person living and working in the city) than I'd bargained for. It was quite different from a BnB stay in a way that's hard to put into words. I still enjoy good BnBs and have recently booked several fabulous ones, for trips when privacy, flexibility, luxury, a unique setting and/or coming and going at all hours was a must. I take many trips which are suited to differing kinds of accommodations, but to be honest with you, the one constant for me is that I have a strong preference for accommodations where the owners/staff's care and passion into creating something special is evident. The rise of boutique hotels and budget boutiques, and AirBnB as well, are evidence that more and more people value unique and more personal travel experiences like myself. As a survival strategy, I think it would be more fruitful (and I would much prefer) for BnBs to reach or maintain that standard rather than seeing them waging a nearly impossible fight against existing service that works and makes a lot of people (many of them BnB patrons as well) very happy. I find the good ones already do.
I think it would be more fruitful (and I would much prefer) for BnBs to reach or maintain that standard rather than seeing them waging a nearly impossible fight against existing service that works and makes a lot of people (many of them BnB patrons as well) very happy. I find the good ones already do.
It is not a fight against the service..it is a fight against the misuse of a name. I'm sure there are lots of kids who like to sleep on someone else's pull-out couch for $60, great have at it...call it "air couch"...or "dude my back hurts" or whatever.
It's kind of like what your reaction might be to someone who is a Walmart cash register operator calling themselves a physicist ... they both punch numbers into calculators, right?
I think it would be more fruitful (and I would much prefer) for BnBs to reach or maintain that standard rather than seeing them waging a nearly impossible fight against existing service that works and makes a lot of people (many of them BnB patrons as well) very happy. I find the good ones already do.
I'm more annoyed that I have to pay taxes, pay for a license, pay for insurance jump through expensive hoops to make money. You want these others to make the money without having to pay the cost of business.
I suppose working "off the books" and not paying taxes is okay with you as well.Just let the rest of us pay your way...
RIki edited to say I used the Quote thingy wrong again. I'm not talking to Swirt, but to supporters of either of these businesses. Neither one pays their dues to operate, I'm sure
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Riki Goodell
Arcady Vineyard Bed & Breakfast
Arcady Vineyard Wine Tours
www.arcadyvineyard.com
Come! Let us show you the beautiful Monticello Appellation!
I'm more annoyed that I have to pay taxes, pay for a license, pay for insurance jump through expensive hoops to make money. You want these others to make the money without having to pay the cost of business.
I suppose working "off the books" and not paying taxes is okay with you as well. Just let the rest of us pay your way...
That's not quite fair, Riki...we don't know that these people don't claim this income and pay taxes on it. I didn't see any that offer breakfast (so where the "bnb" comes in, I don't know) and since they likely don't advertise themselves as a business, don't need licensing or inspection. Nor does someone who rents a vacation home by the week or weekend, or a room in their home to a monthly boarder....those people are not required to collect taxes from their guests/renters...but are required to pay taxes on their income, and can also write off their expenses.
You and I choose to have this type of business, and do advertise ourselves as such, so we jump through the necessary hoops. Granted, you have far more hoops in your location than I do in mine...but that's not my fault.
Renting "guest rooms" is the type of thing I might consider doing after Innkeeping. As long as you play by the applicable rules, it's just one more way that your house can help to pay for itself.
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The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue and gives kisses freely and enthusiastically to everyone!
You say they "likely don't advertise themselves as a business", but if they are listed anywhere as offering this service then they DO. We looked into renting out our guest cabin. Of course, being honest folk, we spoke with the county. He said we weren't zoned for it, and could not do this without a variance. He also said off the record we could do it but "don't list it anywhere on-line, because then "He would have to take action". BTW we have never rented it.
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From the ancient Greek: "Against stupidity, the Gods themselves are impotent"
Yes, but it again goes back to the using of the word "B&B"...it's misleading.
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What you call love was invented by guys like me to sell nylons.
I agree with that, as evidenced by my noting the breakfast issue. What I don't agree with is the automatic assumption that the participants are doing anything wrong or illegal. They probably pay more in taxes than I do.
But I think Riki's point is that anyone benefitting from the site (thus benefitting from the use of the term B&B) is doing so without paying any kind of licensing fee, insurance, or sales tax. They MIGHT be paying income tax on their profits, but in my mind that's a humongous "might"...why would they if they are not even set up as a separate tax idenitity?
Maybe BNB stands for "bed and backpack" or "bed and bath".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the people who run the site, just the people who advertise on it...who no doubt advertise on all kinds of different sites that don't have bnb in the title. If it's free to list, and getting all kinds of publicity, I would certainly do so in their position. I don't see the words "bed and breakfast" anywhere on the site, although I admit that domain is incredibly misleading.
I'm not set up as a seperate tax entity...we have a DBA and all our revenues and expenses are run through our personal tax returns. If I were doing what these people are doing, I wouldn't even need a DBA. As far as taxes go, I'm pretty sure there are alot of licensed "professional" B&B's who cheat on their taxes and don't pay their fair share.
Maybe I'm just looking at it from the perspective of someone who has thought about doing something similar in the future...certainly none of us know these people, so can't say what they do or don't do in terms of legality, taxes, etc....it's a pretty gray area. I doubt Michigan has any rules or regulations of any kind, although the insurance question is a good one.
Ok, Fountainrunner was here to defend couchsurfing.com which is quite different that AirB&B and how it is set up. I think he found this thread and John's posting while searching about that site.
Fountainrunner you are right that backpackers and the like would not be interested in the B&B industry. That is why we do have objection to a different site that is using our industry in it's title. It is bad for our industry as there are so very many that have misconseptions of what a B&B is and the types of guests that are attracted to them. Starting a new B&B in an area is difficult without this type of site (AirB&B) giving our industry a sore thumb. (IMHO) This just feeds the nayers some additional meat to through out to the zoning boards as if to say that B&B's just take in any wanderer coming through. We all work very hard to educate neighborhoods on the good benefits of having a B&B in their areas.
Ok, Fountainrunner was here to defend couchsurfing.com which is quite different that AirB&B and how it is set up. I think he found this thread and John's posting while searching about that site.
Hello Copperhead,
No, I didn't find this thread or posting while searching about that site. I'm here because I'm a member of this forum and working hard to get into this business on my own, so I do understand why everyone is upset about this AirBnB crap. I just wanted to point out to one person how that other particular site was different. It was never my intention for it to get this big. I guess I goofed up. I'll learn to keep my trap shut. 
Goodness! None of us ever shut up! What makes this Forum so interesting is the fact that we all tell it like it is - from OUR perspectives. We all voice our NVHO then sometimes go into a corner and lick our wounds or laugh or 
I just wanted to point out to one person how that other particular site was different. It was never my intention for it to get this big. I guess I goofed up. I'll learn to keep my trap shut.
No need to go silent. Depending on how some people have their preferences set for displaying a thread it makes it less obvious who was replying to who and about what. I think everyone understands now what you were saying and which site you were addressing. No harm done and thanks for helping clarify the point.
What level of government is the most typical for collecting occupancy taxes and other kinds of fees from innkeepers? Cities? Counties?
I ask, because I see no harm in sending a letter to the head of a group like the National Association of Counties or National League of Cities making them aware of the AirBnB phenomenon, who might be raising risk in their towns and who are not supporting the tax base like legitimate lodging establishments.
Thoughts?
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Jay Karen
President & CEO
Professional Association of Innkeepers International
207 White Horse Pike
Haddon Heights NJ 08035
856-310-1102, x4 Phone
www.innkeeping.org
What level of government is the most typical for collecting occupancy taxes and other kinds of fees from innkeepers? Cities? Counties?
I ask, because I see no harm in sending a letter to the head of a group like the National Association of Counties or National League of Cities making them aware of the AirBnB phenomenon, who might be raising risk in their towns and who are not supporting the tax base like legitimate lodging establishments.
Thoughts?
Around here it is the state. Altho there is legislation being batted around to allow towns to levy their own taxes.
What level of government is the most typical for collecting occupancy taxes and other kinds of fees from innkeepers? Cities? Counties?
...
Thoughts?
We pay state sales tax and then county occupancy tax in NY. In some cities and towns there is an additional tax as well.
It would probably be worth you sending the letter Jay. Additionally it might be good to have a form letter that your membership (or maybe even non members) could fill in their names and send to whoever they see fit for their specific region.
That is a good start but not all cities/counties belong to these associations. DO make them aware of AirBnB but I would also notify the Secretary of State's Office in each of the 50 States, DC, and the Territories if AirBnB has dealings in the Territories and request they notify their Attorney General's Offices and counties also. The Secretary of State issues licenses that are used by the tax department that actually collects the sales tax. The hotel tax can be either city or county. Meanwhile I am going to notify my CVB Director who just happens to be the Prez of the State CVB Assoc. I do believe she will let the other members (and not all CVBs are members) know.
Update: I found a listing in Morgantown and notified the CVB in Morgantown. They were VERY interested - she even located the street while we spoke. One down to either cease & desist or pay the taxes!
What level of government is the most typical for collecting occupancy taxes and other kinds of fees from innkeepers? Cities? Counties?
I ask, because I see no harm in sending a letter to the head of a group like the National Association of Counties or National League of Cities making them aware of the AirBnB phenomenon, who might be raising risk in their towns and who are not supporting the tax base like legitimate lodging establishments.
Thoughts?
With local governments suffering currently with many cutbacks, they might be interested in this phenomenon. We pay our lodging/transient tax to the town here. But there is also sales tax to the state.
For me personally, I do not have any within my town or county (that I know of or are listed on that website), although there are plenty of second homes for rent.
I remember when we sold our place in Seattle the realtor told us no one can occupy this house until the papers are finalized due to liability. She had a home burn to the ground recently as the new owners moved in prematurely and had a romantic night before closing with sleeping bags, take-out food and candles. Who held the liability? The one who owned the home - still.
I appreciate Kathleen's perspective! I agree and would say it's incumbent upon you as legitimate establishments to notify the appropriate authorities by sending them direct links to the pages listing lodging opportunities on the site. I certainly would do the same if I was an innkeeper in a town where someone was offering a room this way for $200 per night!
Well, it would torque me off if there were people around here doing this after all the hoops that we jump through to be licensed, insured, and inspected!! 
Don't even get me started on all the paperwork that we have to submit, taxes we collect and remit to the City & State, and everything else we do to be legitimate businesses.
Or maybe we're the ones that have it wrong & we should just go the route of these folks?? 
Samster wrote: Or maybe we're the ones that have it wrong & we should just go the route of these folks?? 
They do this 'undercover' so they don't have to do all the things we do to become licensed etc. BUT - all it takes is ONE slip or fall and these people could loose everything they ever had! I addressed that in my comment under the article. Maybe this will make at least some of these people think! I believe some of these people think they will be covered by their homeowners - and we all know that is WRONG. One slip of the tongue about any money changing hands and the insurance carrier will wipe their hands of any claim and cancel their policy... I would not be suprised if Insurance companies will not get wise to sites like this.
As I posted earlier, the big city near us has had this issue for years and years and the B&B/hotel industry have been battling this with city officials to no avail as there is already so much on the officals plates and no money to add more employees. Of course if they were to fine these 'fly by nights' maybe they could increase their staff. With this mentioned site, and many others including sites like Craigslist, locating them is not as time consuming as before AND they will have documented proof of the illegal business activity.
