AirBnB - What can WE do about this?
Posted on: Tue, 05/12/2009 - 11:31am
Original Topic
OfflineThis message is for Jay at PAII and John at Bandb.com and any other industry folks - Have you see this website? http://www.airbnb.com/
I see they have the list at the bottom as an endorsement - what can WE do to stop this nonsense? We don't need illegal - unlicensed, uninspected, unapproved uninsured, unsafe phony B&B's being promoted to the public - any advice?
__________________
"What the country needs is dirtier fingernails and cleaner minds." Will Rogers
Comments
I don't think we need to do anything about it. $45 per night rooms in non-established businesses speak for themselves.
I think any guest that is unable to differentiate between what you/we offer and what is offered on airbnb you don't want as a guest anyway.
__________________
Inngenious Bed and Breakfast Website Design Advice
Agreed.
We will see more and more of this as folks are more and more desperate to save their homes.
It's the same trend that started the B&B industry to begin with. And for the same reason: folks can't afford their mortgages so are taking in boarders, who can't afford rates at real B&Bs because their own income is reduced.
All inn owners will need to be alert to these possibilities even though, as you say swirt, there's not much that can be done to stop them.
Nor should there be. They are not competition for real B&Bs. These folks wouldn't be staying there anyway.
Anyone who actually is a potential guest at a real inn with a real innkeeper who cares enough to do things right will know the difference. They won't even be looking at these places.
These crash pads will get the overnight travelers on a dime. They won't get the guests who cherish their time at a B&B and look forward to their next respite.
In short, they're no competition at all. So no need to sweat over them at all either.
Consider it, instead, a compliment. And then move on.
__________________
“What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.” Pericles
In short, they're no competition at all. So no need to sweat over them at all either.
Consider it, instead, a compliment. And then move on.
I do not consider it a compliment that I have to pay for taxes, licenses and insurance and they don't. I'm still considering pointing them out to my county when I pay my taxes. And I don't mean someone sleeping on a couch. I see a full house rental for $1800 a week on one of these. If my taxes get increased I'm going to go in and ask them about that one for sure.
RIki
__________________
Riki Goodell
Arcady Vineyard Bed & Breakfast
Arcady Vineyard Wine Tours
www.arcadyvineyard.com
Come! Let us show you the beautiful Monticello Appellation!
When this first came out I found one in Margantown and had no compunction about pointing it out to the CVB - they get their funding from the bed tax. Have no clue about the results, but in this State several taxes are involved - State sales tax, bed tax (hotel/motel by name), and B & O tax. We do not need to get another #1 in the Press - for tax evaders - although Washington DC probably holds that record - in the Capitol Complex.
__________________
Happy in my Hills
In short, they're no competition at all. So no need to sweat over them at all either.
Consider it, instead, a compliment. And then move on.
I do not consider it a compliment that I have to pay for taxes, licenses and insurance and they don't. I'm still considering pointing them out to my county when I pay my taxes. And I don't mean someone sleeping on a couch. I see a full house rental for $1800 a week on one of these. If my taxes get increased I'm going to go in and ask them about that one for sure.
RIki
I agree with you Riki... Vacation rentals have sored in this area and none collect tax. I have emailed them myself and asked what the total would be including tax...reply is 'tax is included'... Trouble is that here, the state only collects if place has 6 or more rooms, county collects on 2 or more rooms which they have FAILED to make these rentals quailfiy. Also here, if they do not need to collect taxes, they do not need a permit and are not subject to fire inspections either... As far as the insurance goes, it is their (owners) stupidity if they do not liability ins. and rentors ins. as if something bad happens, they will pay! Other issues I see with this are neighbors...in the area near the lake, vacation rentals have become very popular...but what about the neighbors who own and LIVE full time next door. One of my friends is battling that issue as we speak. The owner just sruggs off his complaints about loud music and people saying 'oh, they'll be gone in a couple of days'...well yea and then what will come in????
__________________
"Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." Hebrews 13:2
There was just an incident in a very upscale gated community in MD on Halloween. People rented out their mansion for 100 person Halloween party!!!! 2 people shot and killed!!!! Neighbors said it was rented frequently for parties!!!! And can you believe no one ever complained!!!!! If it were my neighborhood, I certainly would have said something. It is the same nearby here in Massanutten resort... they are trying to crack down on people renting out their homes as vacation rentals. Don't know what the final zoning decision is and how they will enforce it.
Here's the thing. If they're operating illegally, they're going to get caught.
If the innkeepers don't report them, the neighbors will.
They won't be around for long.
And if they're attracting parties, those are definitely not the kind of crowd you want at your B&B anyway.
So, for me personally, I wouldn't sweat them too much. Karma will catch up with them. And if karma doesn't, the taxman will.
I think John posted this here quite awhile ago. I'm not sure it's such a big deal. The 'as seen on' is not really an endorsement, it only means there was a story. The story could be really bad. It's pretty much the same as all of those 'guest house' places where you get someone's spare bed.
Think about it like flea bag motels not really putting a dent in the high end hotel biz.
__________________
Spare me the perky.
They have been getting a lot of press. Annoying. This one is even bigger from what I have heard: http://www.couchsurfing.org/
__________________
John Banczak
Chief Operating Officer
BedandBreakfast.com
RezOvation
Hi JBanczak,
Yes, but as an active member of the couchsurfing community I can tell you that it's a completely different animal and of no threat to B&B operators. Couchsurfing mostly serves the need of young (under 30) backpackers who would never think to stay at a B&B in the first place. These are kids who are traveling on a tight budget and couchsurfing either saves them the $30 bucks they'd pay at the hostel or from sleeping on a park bench.
PS - In the years I've been with it I've only hosted two people over 30. And trust me when I say you don't want us kiddies "partying" or slumming it in your lovely B&Bs.
Hi JBanczak,
Yes, but as an active member of the couchsurfing community I can tell you that it's a completely different animal and of no threat to B&B operators. Couchsurfing mostly serves the need of young (under 30) backpackers who would never think to stay at a B&B in the first place. These are kids who are traveling on a tight budget and couchsurfing either saves them the $30 bucks they'd pay at the hostel or from sleeping on a park bench.
PS - In the years I've been with it I've only hosted two people over 30. And trust me when I say you don't want us kiddies "partying" or slumming it in your lovely B&Bs.
Hey fountainrunner,
It is the name AirBnB - Couchsurfer is what it is, but taking the name of legit businesses is what imo is worrisome. I have not seen them all to be $30 hostel-going backpackers, the couple I viewed remotely close to me were $200 a night! Double what I charge and there was no breakfast included.
Had they called it Couchsurf.com we would never have been aware of the site nor would I have cared. BUT when the letters BNB are put together, it brings my chosen industry into the equation. We have a hard enough time getting neighborhoods to understand what a bed & breakfast actually is and this kind of publicity does not do MY industry any good at all. In fact it hurts it. And I resent that. I resent that my business is made to look cheap, that no fire or health inspections are taking place, no insurance paid, and above all NO TAXES - all of which are required of me to exist legitimately.
We have to jump through all sorts of hoops - and many obstacles that we should not have to deal with due to bureaucrats.
You may think airbnb is no threat to bed & breakfasts but it is on many levels.
Well said
Yes, but as an active member of the couchsurfing community I can tell you that it's a completely different animal and of no threat to B&B operators. C
If you're not a B&B then don't call yourself B&B.
Plus, if you look in my area of Charlottesville, there is one property for rent for $1800. I thnk this alone negates your argument. I don't see any "kiddies" affording that.
Riki
Wait, did anyone bother to read my post?!?! We're talking about two different sites here and I was replying to JBanczak's mention of the site couchsurfing.com.
I was NOT commenting on AirBnB!!! I was commenting on couchsurfing - period. I'm not a member of AirBnB nor did I say it was not a threat to B&B operators. I agree with what everyone on here is saying and only sharing with the group how the one site is completely different from this AirBnB nonsense. Please re-read my post because it seems to have been taken out of context. Thank you.
Wait, did anyone bother to read my post?!?!?!? We're talking about two different sites here and I was replying to JBanczak's mention of the site couchsurfing.com.
I was NOT commenting on AirBnB!!! I was commenting on couchsurfing - period. I'm not a member of AirBnB nor did I say it was not a threat to B&B operators. Please re-read my post because it seems to have been taken out of context. Thank you.
You are in a post about airbedBnB. JB brought that other one up, but that is not the website anyone is concerned about, read the other 25 comments, I think there is another posting about this same subject on this forum as well. No need to defend couchsurfer.
__________________
"There are 3 types of players in this world: those who make it happen, those who watch it happen, & those who wonder what happens." (sorta Lasorda)
Joe,
I read through the whole thread before posting, thanks. I addressed JBanczak back in my reply because I wanted he/she to know couchsurfing was something completely different. It didn't need to be included in this discussion as a possible threat. I was just pointing it out and I think everyone thought in doing so I was defending AirBnB, I'm not.
Sorry. I did not know there WAS a couchsurf site. Not so comfortable with that either, but at least it does not take the name of my industry in vain.
And yes, I do promise to do all I can to create a hassle for the site that does take my industry in vain. I know of one that is no longer "under the radar" and I hope they change their name. Airbaglodging might be an alternative.
I would concur with Swirt, it's not our market. I would also say that this is something that would catch local attention if it began to impede regulation (they aren't paying taxes and it is hurting the community)
That has already been a very big deal on Maui and they are actively regulating it.
__________________
Aloha
I wouldn't do anything. anyone that wants to pay $45 a night to stay somewhere is NOT someone you want at your B & B anyway. If their town gets wind of what they are doing illegally without a business license...someone will report them.
The term BnB is there, that is what bothers me, I don't want them to be perceived as a legal B&B's or even borrow our terminology.
I know Hawaii has an epidemic of this and in fact is in the news often. Maybe homestays fall in the same category - but at least they call them homestays, to be fair.
The diff between a vacation rental vs a B&B is what is at stake. As a B&B we should be concerned when anyone uses our name falsely. I am not worried about guests they will have, I think anyone who rents a couch or an airbed, well maybe the hostels are the ones they compete with.
I know many cities overlook all regulations when they have major people events such as the Olympics. Again, the city looks at money talking and wants to rake it in and overlook health and safety issues. Which is never a good idea. We discussed this recently about food vendors and concessions, let me be frank, it is called the CARNIE mentality. They can skate along and avoid all laws, regulations and taxes.
Looks like I have a couple in my area. There are also some listed on VRBO. These illegal businesses don't pay sales tax or occupancy tax. I for one would rather see guest to my town stay at a hotel, that way the taxes would be paid. In these days of shrinking tax revenue I can guess that our local and state officials would not look so kindly on these businesses if they had knowledge of them. I'm not really a rat...I guess I'll just mention it to one of the Inn Keepers that can't keep their nose out of others business.
I had to look myself. None in my town yet but the big city near me has 17 ranging in price from $40 for a airbed in living room to a cottage for $350 per night. Oh, and one is listed as a B&B...not known by my innkeeper friends there. This city has this type of problem all the time though due to a lot of festivals that fill our legit businesses - or the hotels raise their rates over the top....
Closest one here is 20 miles away. $300/night. Hmmm, what am I doing wrong? I pay all the taxes, have all the required licenses and charge half that price. Ah, but I don't try to squeeze 6 people into one room.
Okay you made me look Hangfive. Look at this one near Virginia Tech $200 and breakfast? None included. ha ha what a bargain! They can stay here at this overpriced B&B for $110 a night AND get a super breakfast!
And the private bath is behind that attic door? How about the cat, is the cat included? I saw pix supposedly of the rental space with dogs lolling around, dog beds, etc. Are the dogs included?
I wouldn't worry until these people get a clue. Right now, at some of the prices I've seen, and the 'wildlife' in the photos, they're not getting anyone. At the lower prices, they'll get couch surfers. (At least I surf for free, breakfast & dinner included...it pays to have friends!)
I just sent their site's management an email with some pressing questions. We'll see what kind of response I get.
It's a bit like Craiglist - what responsibility does the site management/ownership have over the content of the site, even if there is money changing hands? They folks at AirBnB may have no legal responbility to make sure the lodging establishments (term used VERY LOOSELY) are licensed or legitimate places where people can pay to lay their heads. In this Web 2.0 world, it seems site owners are fairly well-protected with regard to what content others are uploading or offering on their web sites.
What would you suggest as a course of action when AirBnB likely says, "Sorry...we're not going to do anything about this"? It's almost as though every local government that licenses lodging businesses would have to become aware of this.
__________________
Jay Karen
President & CEO
Professional Association of Innkeepers International
207 White Horse Pike
Haddon Heights NJ 08035
856-310-1102, x4 Phone
www.innkeeping.org
It's almost as though every local government that licenses lodging businesses would have to become aware of this.
As a licensed, insured, and tax paying legal innkeeper, I have no qualms about helping my City find cheats - and my City is aggressive about shutting down cheats if they do not have a license - I mean a City License in addition to their State License! In addition to nailing tax cheats, I would feel it was getting rid of a detriment to my industry since they refer to themselves as bed & breakfasts. It gives us a bad name - especially as long and the freakin' Media keep hyping it.
I am like you on this one. We have a similar problem here with folks who do Cabin rentals. They think you just list it somewhere and rent it out and make a fortune! WRONG! We want the tourism business but we want folks running accommodations to be legal and paying their fare share in taxes etc. So when I come across someone I think is operating under the radar, I report them for investigation.
I appreciate Kathleen's perspective! I agree and would say it's incumbent upon you as legitimate establishments to notify the appropriate authorities by sending them direct links to the pages listing lodging opportunities on the site. I certainly would do the same if I was an innkeeper in a town where someone was offering a room this way for $200 per night!
I have to think about that.
Well, it would torque me off if there were people around here doing this after all the hoops that we jump through to be licensed, insured, and inspected!!
Don't even get me started on all the paperwork that we have to submit, taxes we collect and remit to the City & State, and everything else we do to be legitimate businesses.
Or maybe we're the ones that have it wrong & we should just go the route of these folks??
__________________
We judge ourselves by what we feel capable of doing, while others judge us by what we have already done. ~ Longfellow
Samster wrote: Or maybe we're the ones that have it wrong & we should just go the route of these folks??
They do this 'undercover' so they don't have to do all the things we do to become licensed etc. BUT - all it takes is ONE slip or fall and these people could loose everything they ever had! I addressed that in my comment under the article. Maybe this will make at least some of these people think! I believe some of these people think they will be covered by their homeowners - and we all know that is WRONG. One slip of the tongue about any money changing hands and the insurance carrier will wipe their hands of any claim and cancel their policy... I would not be suprised if Insurance companies will not get wise to sites like this.
As I posted earlier, the big city near us has had this issue for years and years and the B&B/hotel industry have been battling this with city officials to no avail as there is already so much on the officals plates and no money to add more employees. Of course if they were to fine these 'fly by nights' maybe they could increase their staff. With this mentioned site, and many others including sites like Craigslist, locating them is not as time consuming as before AND they will have documented proof of the illegal business activity.
I was kidding...obviously
Yes, I knew YOU were! Just wanted to provide any future aspiring reasons they should NOT play around with this notion.
What level of government is the most typical for collecting occupancy taxes and other kinds of fees from innkeepers? Cities? Counties?
I ask, because I see no harm in sending a letter to the head of a group like the National Association of Counties or National League of Cities making them aware of the AirBnB phenomenon, who might be raising risk in their towns and who are not supporting the tax base like legitimate lodging establishments.
Thoughts?
What level of government is the most typical for collecting occupancy taxes and other kinds of fees from innkeepers? Cities? Counties?
I ask, because I see no harm in sending a letter to the head of a group like the National Association of Counties or National League of Cities making them aware of the AirBnB phenomenon, who might be raising risk in their towns and who are not supporting the tax base like legitimate lodging establishments.
Thoughts?
With local governments suffering currently with many cutbacks, they might be interested in this phenomenon. We pay our lodging/transient tax to the town here. But there is also sales tax to the state.
For me personally, I do not have any within my town or county (that I know of or are listed on that website), although there are plenty of second homes for rent.
I remember when we sold our place in Seattle the realtor told us no one can occupy this house until the papers are finalized due to liability. She had a home burn to the ground recently as the new owners moved in prematurely and had a romantic night before closing with sleeping bags, take-out food and candles. Who held the liability? The one who owned the home - still.
That is a good start but not all cities/counties belong to these associations. DO make them aware of AirBnB but I would also notify the Secretary of State's Office in each of the 50 States, DC, and the Territories if AirBnB has dealings in the Territories and request they notify their Attorney General's Offices and counties also. The Secretary of State issues licenses that are used by the tax department that actually collects the sales tax. The hotel tax can be either city or county. Meanwhile I am going to notify my CVB Director who just happens to be the Prez of the State CVB Assoc. I do believe she will let the other members (and not all CVBs are members) know.
Update: I found a listing in Morgantown and notified the CVB in Morgantown. They were VERY interested - she even located the street while we spoke. One down to either cease & desist or pay the taxes!
What level of government is the most typical for collecting occupancy taxes and other kinds of fees from innkeepers? Cities? Counties?
...
Thoughts?
We pay state sales tax and then county occupancy tax in NY. In some cities and towns there is an additional tax as well.
It would probably be worth you sending the letter Jay. Additionally it might be good to have a form letter that your membership (or maybe even non members) could fill in their names and send to whoever they see fit for their specific region.
I think this is it! A form letter that could be used as an informative notification to officials would be great. Local zoning restrictions could also come into play I would think.
What level of government is the most typical for collecting occupancy taxes and other kinds of fees from innkeepers? Cities? Counties?
I ask, because I see no harm in sending a letter to the head of a group like the National Association of Counties or National League of Cities making them aware of the AirBnB phenomenon, who might be raising risk in their towns and who are not supporting the tax base like legitimate lodging establishments.
Thoughts?
Around here it is the state. Altho there is legislation being batted around to allow towns to levy their own taxes.
Ok, Fountainrunner was here to defend couchsurfing.com which is quite different that AirB&B and how it is set up. I think he found this thread and John's posting while searching about that site.
Fountainrunner you are right that backpackers and the like would not be interested in the B&B industry. That is why we do have objection to a different site that is using our industry in it's title. It is bad for our industry as there are so very many that have misconseptions of what a B&B is and the types of guests that are attracted to them. Starting a new B&B in an area is difficult without this type of site (AirB&B) giving our industry a sore thumb. (IMHO) This just feeds the nayers some additional meat to through out to the zoning boards as if to say that B&B's just take in any wanderer coming through. We all work very hard to educate neighborhoods on the good benefits of having a B&B in their areas.
Ok, Fountainrunner was here to defend couchsurfing.com which is quite different that AirB&B and how it is set up. I think he found this thread and John's posting while searching about that site.
Hello Copperhead,
No, I didn't find this thread or posting while searching about that site. I'm here because I'm a member of this forum and working hard to get into this business on my own, so I do understand why everyone is upset about this AirBnB crap. I just wanted to point out to one person how that other particular site was different. It was never my intention for it to get this big. I guess I goofed up. I'll learn to keep my trap shut.
I just wanted to point out to one person how that other particular site was different. It was never my intention for it to get this big. I guess I goofed up. I'll learn to keep my trap shut.
No need to go silent. Depending on how some people have their preferences set for displaying a thread it makes it less obvious who was replying to who and about what. I think everyone understands now what you were saying and which site you were addressing. No harm done and thanks for helping clarify the point.
Goodness! None of us ever shut up! What makes this Forum so interesting is the fact that we all tell it like it is - from OUR perspectives. We all voice our NVHO then sometimes go into a corner and lick our wounds or laugh or
I'm an avid AirBnB guest and host who also loves a good BnB. I found AirBnB when I needed housing for a sailing class in San Francisco and couldn't afford the traditional options, but realized from that first stay that I got a lot more (new friends, local perspective, one-on-one attention, a sense of what it was like for another young person living and working in the city) than I'd bargained for. It was quite different from a BnB stay in a way that's hard to put into words. I still enjoy good BnBs and have recently booked several fabulous ones, for trips when privacy, flexibility, luxury, a unique setting and/or coming and going at all hours was a must. I take many trips which are suited to differing kinds of accommodations, but to be honest with you, the one constant for me is that I have a strong preference for accommodations where the owners/staff's care and passion into creating something special is evident. The rise of boutique hotels and budget boutiques, and AirBnB as well, are evidence that more and more people value unique and more personal travel experiences like myself. As a survival strategy, I think it would be more fruitful (and I would much prefer) for BnBs to reach or maintain that standard rather than seeing them waging a nearly impossible fight against existing service that works and makes a lot of people (many of them BnB patrons as well) very happy. I find the good ones already do.
It is not a fight against the service..it is a fight against the misuse of a name. I'm sure there are lots of kids who like to sleep on someone else's pull-out couch for $60, great have at it...call it "air couch"...or "dude my back hurts" or whatever.
It's kind of like what your reaction might be to someone who is a Walmart cash register operator calling themselves a physicist ... they both punch numbers into calculators, right?
I'm more annoyed that I have to pay taxes, pay for a license, pay for insurance jump through expensive hoops to make money. You want these others to make the money without having to pay the cost of business.
I suppose working "off the books" and not paying taxes is okay with you as well.Just let the rest of us pay your way...
RIki edited to say I used the Quote thingy wrong again. I'm not talking to Swirt, but to supporters of either of these businesses. Neither one pays their dues to operate, I'm sure
I'm more annoyed that I have to pay taxes, pay for a license, pay for insurance jump through expensive hoops to make money. You want these others to make the money without having to pay the cost of business.
I suppose working "off the books" and not paying taxes is okay with you as well. Just let the rest of us pay your way...
That's not quite fair, Riki...we don't know that these people don't claim this income and pay taxes on it. I didn't see any that offer breakfast (so where the "bnb" comes in, I don't know) and since they likely don't advertise themselves as a business, don't need licensing or inspection. Nor does someone who rents a vacation home by the week or weekend, or a room in their home to a monthly boarder....those people are not required to collect taxes from their guests/renters...but are required to pay taxes on their income, and can also write off their expenses.
You and I choose to have this type of business, and do advertise ourselves as such, so we jump through the necessary hoops. Granted, you have far more hoops in your location than I do in mine...but that's not my fault.
Renting "guest rooms" is the type of thing I might consider doing after Innkeeping. As long as you play by the applicable rules, it's just one more way that your house can help to pay for itself.
__________________
The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue. ~Author Unknown
Yes, but it again goes back to the using of the word "B&B"...it's misleading.
__________________
What you call love was invented by guys like me to sell nylons.