A vent...kinda. Need some input on this situation

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The Farmers Daughter

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I will try to condense a rather long story, but stay with me folks.
About 3 years ago, I hired a woman (Anne) to help me around the Inn. Mostly cleaning, but sometimes serving or innkeeping when necessary. She is in her late 50's or early 60s and is a former mortgage broker who had to resort to taking cleaning stints and other pt jobs in order to survive. She harbors a good deal of resentment about her current state of affairs. She is also a landlord and has a couple of rental properties within a 50 mile radius. In addition to that, her elderly mother lives with her.
OK...now on to the problems. First off she is never on time for anything. EVER. If I need her her at 10:30 she may show up at 11 or 11:15. I have confronted her on several occasions about this and its always some excuse. Usually because the day worker who she hires to watch her mother didn't show up on time and now she is late.
The next problem is she talks endlessly about all her problems. When she comes in late, she will be going on about a problem with one of her tenents, ex husband, daughter, grandson, etc ... etc... etc and this takes up more time when she should be working. We have had conversations about this too. I have told her that I can only afford to pay her for the work she has accomplished, not the amount of time she has been here chatting about issues du jour.
Another problem is that she is not dependable. She has canceled on me at the last moment during very busy times when I really need extra help. This Valentines day was another example of that. I had a full house and needed to turn over several rooms between 11am for 3 pm checkins. She called me at the last minute and apologized that she couldn't make it. Her daughter had bought theater tickets and she completely forgot about it when she told me she could come in on Valentines Day. I went ballistic. I seriously flipped out at her and told her that it was completely unacceptable and she has really put me in a bind and that I can not possibly do all this myself on such a busy weekend.
Her daughter owns a professional cleaning company. She called her daughter and arranged for someone to be here at 10:30 on Valentines Day morning to help me and at the same rate I pay Anne.
10:30 rolls around a woman who I will call Peg shows up right on time, very professional, fast, focused, efficient, takes directions etc. She is perfect! I asked her if she might be interested in helping out here from time to time going forward and she said yes.
Now here is the dilemma. They know each other and since Peg works for Annes daughter, this could be a very delicate situation. I would love to let Anne go, because she is just more aggravation than she is worth and hire Peg who is so much better at this. Is this a bad idea?
I would like your thougths and opinions on this situation.
 

wendydk

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Give the job to the one who does it best and appreciates it the most. If you have talked to her about these issues before, then she can't say she wasn't warned. In this economy, there are a hundred great people willing to work long and hard...no need to waste any more time, money or emotional energy on those that are not.
 

gillumhouse

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Before doing anything, better make sure Peg can do WITHOUT her job with Anne's daughter because if she takes Anne's place that is exactly what is going to happen.
 

The Farmers Daughter

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Before doing anything, better make sure Peg can do WITHOUT her job with Anne's daughter because if she takes Anne's place that is exactly what is going to happen..
gillumhouse said:
Before doing anything, better make sure Peg can do WITHOUT her job with Anne's daughter because if she takes Anne's place that is exactly what is going to happen.
Yes, that occurred to me too.
 

Innkeeper To Go

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Before doing anything, better make sure Peg can do WITHOUT her job with Anne's daughter because if she takes Anne's place that is exactly what is going to happen..
I agree.
While it certainly seems that Anne is not doing an effective job and that FD has spoken with her about the issue of timeliness, I'd go to the next step.
I'd sit down with Anne and tell her just where we are with the situation. That she's not performing her job effectively and it's having a detrimental effect on the inn.
And give her a firm date for improvement or the next step will happen, which could mean firing her or could mean cutting back on her hours and bringing someone else in to fill in the slack. If the second option seemed the best plan, I'd follow through to make sure there is improvement or she'd have to be let go.
The main thing, for me, is for Anne to really understand that she's setting herself up to be fired BEFORE she is actually fired. It may wake her up.
Or it may be that Anne herself knows this is not a good situation for anyone and would prefer to just stop it herself. It very well could be that she just can't bring herself to quit something she hates because she hates to give up the money.
And definitely, I'd consider whether Peg could actually stand to lose the income she makes from Anne's daughter. If she's put in the middle of this, I'd want to make sure it wasn't going to hurt her in the long run.
 

The Farmers Daughter

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Before doing anything, better make sure Peg can do WITHOUT her job with Anne's daughter because if she takes Anne's place that is exactly what is going to happen..
I agree.
While it certainly seems that Anne is not doing an effective job and that FD has spoken with her about the issue of timeliness, I'd go to the next step.
I'd sit down with Anne and tell her just where we are with the situation. That she's not performing her job effectively and it's having a detrimental effect on the inn.
And give her a firm date for improvement or the next step will happen, which could mean firing her or could mean cutting back on her hours and bringing someone else in to fill in the slack. If the second option seemed the best plan, I'd follow through to make sure there is improvement or she'd have to be let go.
The main thing, for me, is for Anne to really understand that she's setting herself up to be fired BEFORE she is actually fired. It may wake her up.
Or it may be that Anne herself knows this is not a good situation for anyone and would prefer to just stop it herself. It very well could be that she just can't bring herself to quit something she hates because she hates to give up the money.
And definitely, I'd consider whether Peg could actually stand to lose the income she makes from Anne's daughter. If she's put in the middle of this, I'd want to make sure it wasn't going to hurt her in the long run.
.
Innkeeper To Go said:
And definitely, I'd consider whether Peg could actually stand to lose the income she makes from Anne's daughter. If she's put in the middle of this, I'd want to make sure it wasn't going to hurt her in the long run.
Peg only works Pt for Anne's daughter. She would be available to me on Sundays and Tues. I could work with that. Of course, I don't want to put Peg in the middle of any potential family squabble.
 

Innkeeper To Go

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Before doing anything, better make sure Peg can do WITHOUT her job with Anne's daughter because if she takes Anne's place that is exactly what is going to happen..
I agree.
While it certainly seems that Anne is not doing an effective job and that FD has spoken with her about the issue of timeliness, I'd go to the next step.
I'd sit down with Anne and tell her just where we are with the situation. That she's not performing her job effectively and it's having a detrimental effect on the inn.
And give her a firm date for improvement or the next step will happen, which could mean firing her or could mean cutting back on her hours and bringing someone else in to fill in the slack. If the second option seemed the best plan, I'd follow through to make sure there is improvement or she'd have to be let go.
The main thing, for me, is for Anne to really understand that she's setting herself up to be fired BEFORE she is actually fired. It may wake her up.
Or it may be that Anne herself knows this is not a good situation for anyone and would prefer to just stop it herself. It very well could be that she just can't bring herself to quit something she hates because she hates to give up the money.
And definitely, I'd consider whether Peg could actually stand to lose the income she makes from Anne's daughter. If she's put in the middle of this, I'd want to make sure it wasn't going to hurt her in the long run.
.
Innkeeper To Go said:
And definitely, I'd consider whether Peg could actually stand to lose the income she makes from Anne's daughter. If she's put in the middle of this, I'd want to make sure it wasn't going to hurt her in the long run.
Peg only works Pt for Anne's daughter. She would be available to me on Sundays and Tues. I could work with that. Of course, I don't want to put Peg in the middle of any potential family squabble.
.
Then it sure sounds like someone to bring aboard. Especially since Anne's longterm employment may be in doubt.
BTW, I'm assuming we're using pseudo-names here!
 

The Farmers Daughter

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Before doing anything, better make sure Peg can do WITHOUT her job with Anne's daughter because if she takes Anne's place that is exactly what is going to happen..
I agree.
While it certainly seems that Anne is not doing an effective job and that FD has spoken with her about the issue of timeliness, I'd go to the next step.
I'd sit down with Anne and tell her just where we are with the situation. That she's not performing her job effectively and it's having a detrimental effect on the inn.
And give her a firm date for improvement or the next step will happen, which could mean firing her or could mean cutting back on her hours and bringing someone else in to fill in the slack. If the second option seemed the best plan, I'd follow through to make sure there is improvement or she'd have to be let go.
The main thing, for me, is for Anne to really understand that she's setting herself up to be fired BEFORE she is actually fired. It may wake her up.
Or it may be that Anne herself knows this is not a good situation for anyone and would prefer to just stop it herself. It very well could be that she just can't bring herself to quit something she hates because she hates to give up the money.
And definitely, I'd consider whether Peg could actually stand to lose the income she makes from Anne's daughter. If she's put in the middle of this, I'd want to make sure it wasn't going to hurt her in the long run.
.
Innkeeper To Go said:
And definitely, I'd consider whether Peg could actually stand to lose the income she makes from Anne's daughter. If she's put in the middle of this, I'd want to make sure it wasn't going to hurt her in the long run.
Peg only works Pt for Anne's daughter. She would be available to me on Sundays and Tues. I could work with that. Of course, I don't want to put Peg in the middle of any potential family squabble.
.
Then it sure sounds like someone to bring aboard. Especially since Anne's longterm employment may be in doubt.
BTW, I'm assuming we're using pseudo-names here!
.
Innkeeper To Go said:
Then it sure sounds like someone to bring aboard. Especially since Anne's longterm employment may be in doubt.
BTW, I'm assuming we're using pseudo-names here!
Yes. Name have been changed to protect those involved.

 

egoodell

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I know help is difficult to find, but for me, the stress of someone backing out on a holiday is not something I could put up with, especially when they have already been "talked to".
You have spoken to her several times and it is not working. She feels "above" the work so she is never going to be one of those wonderfully loyal co workers who feels like she is part of the business and takes pride in it.
I don't think speaking to her again will do anything. I would let her go asap.
Like the others say, though, getting Peg involved would most definately get her one lost job. But you could see if she approaches you after you let go of her employer's sister.
It might be that good help is so hard to find that her sister will make a distinction in that matter, too?
RIki
 

EmptyNest

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I would let the problem lady go. In fact, I would have let her go along time ago.It sounds like you have discussed these problem issues with her many times. I would sit her down and tell her that what she is doing is unacceptable and you have to let her go. Hire whomever you want.
 

Morticia

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It's a bad idea. Let Anne go, but don't hire Peg. Peg may lose her job with Anne's daughter over this. Then, after a reasonable amount of time has passed, if you haven't found anyone else, see if Peg is available for a few hours.
Keep in mind that Peg was on her best behavior and she may be the other pea in Anne's pod after awhile.
Edited to add after reading everyone else's posts...make sure your butt is covered. You need it in writing that Anne has been counseled about her behavior. She needs to sign it. Otherwise it is she said, she said, if Anne decides she truly loves this job and can't understand why she is being let go.
 

seashanty

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Question: Does Peg have the freedom to take other jobs in her off hours, especially from someone who she was sent to by her employer? Even if it's a little housekeeping company, employees sometimes have to agree not to take on other housekeeping jobs.
I ran into this into a tiny tiny tiny fishing village ... my housekeeper helped me with yard cleanup before we opened for the season -- raking and trimming back dead branches. and the landscaping company she worked for during the summer went balistic on her ... and me. she had signed an agreement not to do gardening except for the landscaper the year BEFORE she was helping me out. long story short (and it is a long story) end result, she quit the landscaping company to work for me (for twice the pay) and i dumped the landscaper who i used to pay to cut my grass. but he actually thought he was going to win ... the petty tirant!
 

gillumhouse

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One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
 

The Farmers Daughter

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One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you..
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
 

Copperhead

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It sounds to me that Anne is really not happy doing the job you have for her and due to that is not taking the job seriously.
If you have documented her actions and those discussions that followed (her signing a document stating the discussion took place) and have placed them in her employment record, you have built your case and it is far time action was made to free her from the position. This protects you if she tries to take action against you for any reason. There also is the chance she would file for unemployment if she were let go. Do you have unemployment insurance?
---
Now about Peg. You need to have a talk with Peg about this situation. She needs to be aware that this could cause hardship between she and her current employer. As SS and others mentioned, she could have signed a contract with Anne's daughter and if so, she is either going to have to resign her current position or not take the one you are offering her. Peg does seem like a good employee but I would place her on as a temp. until she has proven herself (like 2 or 4 months) with a small wage increase at that time or place her as a contract employee (subject to your local laws).
 

Copperhead

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One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you..
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
.
The Farmers Daughter said:
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
Pretty standard, I'm afraid. You must remember that on top of the salary they must pay for liability Ins. (just like we do) and possibly bonding for each of their employees, they also have to pay 7 1/2% of their emp. Social Security....it has to come from somewhere! And then they do need to make money too, or why be in business?
 

egoodell

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One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you..
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
.
The Farmers Daughter said:
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
Pretty standard, I'm afraid. You must remember that on top of the salary they must pay for liability Ins. (just like we do) and possibly bonding for each of their employees, they also have to pay 7 1/2% of their emp. Social Security....it has to come from somewhere! And then they do need to make money too, or why be in business?
.
What state are you in? Virginia is - I forget what it's called - a "no cause state" or something like that. Companies can hire and fire at will unless of course you work for the state or something like that.
RIki
 

Copperhead

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One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you..
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
.
The Farmers Daughter said:
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
Pretty standard, I'm afraid. You must remember that on top of the salary they must pay for liability Ins. (just like we do) and possibly bonding for each of their employees, they also have to pay 7 1/2% of their emp. Social Security....it has to come from somewhere! And then they do need to make money too, or why be in business?
.
What state are you in? Virginia is - I forget what it's called - a "no cause state" or something like that. Companies can hire and fire at will unless of course you work for the state or something like that.
RIki
.
Hire and fire at will is correct here as well but there are cases where the person CAN file a lawsuit...and to protect yourself you should have some documentation as to why you are letting the person go especially if you plan on replacing that person. If you lay someone off due to reduction of staff and are not replacing them there is no or little need for this.
Having worked in a corporate law office, I saw many. many cases regarding termination. Covering your A...... is highly recommended...you would not go without insurance, this is similar. In this case, this woman has been in the corporate world for much of her career, she just may not be to happy about being let go so easily...she also may fit the age discrimination bracket.
Sorry that I go to the extreme here, I learned alot in that job and I do for the most part go to the extreme in protecting mine.
 

gillumhouse

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One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you..
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
.
The Farmers Daughter said:
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
Pretty standard, I'm afraid. You must remember that on top of the salary they must pay for liability Ins. (just like we do) and possibly bonding for each of their employees, they also have to pay 7 1/2% of their emp. Social Security....it has to come from somewhere! And then they do need to make money too, or why be in business?
.
What state are you in? Virginia is - I forget what it's called - a "no cause state" or something like that. Companies can hire and fire at will unless of course you work for the state or something like that.
RIki
.
Hire and fire at will is correct here as well but there are cases where the person CAN file a lawsuit...and to protect yourself you should have some documentation as to why you are letting the person go especially if you plan on replacing that person. If you lay someone off due to reduction of staff and are not replacing them there is no or little need for this.
Having worked in a corporate law office, I saw many. many cases regarding termination. Covering your A...... is highly recommended...you would not go without insurance, this is similar. In this case, this woman has been in the corporate world for much of her career, she just may not be to happy about being let go so easily...she also may fit the age discrimination bracket.
Sorry that I go to the extreme here, I learned alot in that job and I do for the most part go to the extreme in protecting mine.
.
she also may fit the age discrimination bracket.
I believe if I remember correctly - a woman over 40.... PLEASE do a CYA even if it takes another 6 months.
The corporation I worked for was a government contractor and it was easier to just pay the hall walkers than to fire them because they had to document EVERY employee in the department for a year - not just the hall walker - before they could fire them. Hall walkers could not get nailed for doing something worng because they did not do anything to get nailed for.
 

Alice I. W.

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One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you..
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
.
The Farmers Daughter said:
gillumhouse said:
One other possibility - would it be cost-prohibitive to hire Anne's daughter's cleaning company (contract help rather than YOUR employee) and specify Peg as the person you wnat sent to you.
Yes, they are very expensive. The company charges $35 per hour for cleaning services. I pay $15 per hour and that is what the company is paying Peg. So the company gets the extra $20 on top of what they are paying their staff. Quite a little racket they got there.
Pretty standard, I'm afraid. You must remember that on top of the salary they must pay for liability Ins. (just like we do) and possibly bonding for each of their employees, they also have to pay 7 1/2% of their emp. Social Security....it has to come from somewhere! And then they do need to make money too, or why be in business?
.
What state are you in? Virginia is - I forget what it's called - a "no cause state" or something like that. Companies can hire and fire at will unless of course you work for the state or something like that.
RIki
.
Hire and fire at will is correct here as well but there are cases where the person CAN file a lawsuit...and to protect yourself you should have some documentation as to why you are letting the person go especially if you plan on replacing that person. If you lay someone off due to reduction of staff and are not replacing them there is no or little need for this.
Having worked in a corporate law office, I saw many. many cases regarding termination. Covering your A...... is highly recommended...you would not go without insurance, this is similar. In this case, this woman has been in the corporate world for much of her career, she just may not be to happy about being let go so easily...she also may fit the age discrimination bracket.
Sorry that I go to the extreme here, I learned alot in that job and I do for the most part go to the extreme in protecting mine.
.
Hello! Longtime lurker here (B&B fan!), just wanted to add, as a small employer, be careful not to "tip your hand" too much, people have been know to get 'injured on the job' when they know the axe is about to fall. Not meaning to be paranoid, but I've seen it happen.
 
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