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David Pearce

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http://www.trippoinc.com/marketing/marketing-your-bed-breakfast-on-airbnb-com/
Anybody here have experience listing on Airbnb?
 
Yes, if you dig back into some older threads there is info on the forum, use the google search button, or were you just wanting to share your write up?
I agree with your comments, as PAII is spearheading the "grassroots" Better Way to Stay campaign, aimed at GenYX, it seems odd that Jay is opposed to it. Heck they have some of the funkiest inns/rentals on the planet, I for one, am interested in some of those!
This is what AirBnB is about as well, BWTS although not bed and breakfast style, they are still attempting to garner GenYX guests and support. They may have liability issues on their end, esp with this latest newsworthy fiasco, but we HAVE insurance as a licensed, inspected and approved B&B, don't we? Yes. So for inns to be on AirBnB, which is totally free to list, and actually brings some great guests, I would say GO FOR IT, and I HAVE.
Payment was immediate. Guests were educated, well behaved, fun going. Leaving a review is fast and easy, responding to inquiries is fast and easy.
But you see, I am a voice in the wilderness many times on the forum. So you will have to see if anyone else here has listed with them and the results, although me thinks none have at this point. I wish I had more from that "directory."
regular_smile.gif
 
No. I'm not likely going to list my legally licenced B&B with all the illegal apartment lets. It's like standing in a room of drug dealers and trying to explain to everyone that I want to do everything legally.
 
Yes, if you dig back into some older threads there is info on the forum, use the google search button, or were you just wanting to share your write up?
I agree with your comments, as PAII is spearheading the "grassroots" Better Way to Stay campaign, aimed at GenYX, it seems odd that Jay is opposed to it. Heck they have some of the funkiest inns/rentals on the planet, I for one, am interested in some of those!
This is what AirBnB is about as well, BWTS although not bed and breakfast style, they are still attempting to garner GenYX guests and support. They may have liability issues on their end, esp with this latest newsworthy fiasco, but we HAVE insurance as a licensed, inspected and approved B&B, don't we? Yes. So for inns to be on AirBnB, which is totally free to list, and actually brings some great guests, I would say GO FOR IT, and I HAVE.
Payment was immediate. Guests were educated, well behaved, fun going. Leaving a review is fast and easy, responding to inquiries is fast and easy.
But you see, I am a voice in the wilderness many times on the forum. So you will have to see if anyone else here has listed with them and the results, although me thinks none have at this point. I wish I had more from that "directory."
regular_smile.gif
.
Ahh, usually when I see those google search bars on websites they actually search google, rather than the website I'm on (I'll never understand that). I assumed that's what it was, thanks for the heads up.
As for Airbnb I'm glad you had a good experience, and yes I agree many people will be against it. I think it could be a really valuable tool though, especially as it grows and becomes mainstream. Anyone who looks past it is likely missing out on some quality bookings. Do you still actively list your rooms on it?
The recent fiasco wasn't pretty for them but it did result in a $50k insurance policy for hosts, which is great. Although like you said your property should be insured anyways so those types of situations shouldn't be an issue for innkeepers.
 
No. I'm not likely going to list my legally licenced B&B with all the illegal apartment lets. It's like standing in a room of drug dealers and trying to explain to everyone that I want to do everything legally..
Eric, care to elaborate? Do you think as a legitimate business it's harder to be successful on the website or are you just against the principal of the service?
To me it seems more like listing a phone number to your legal dispensary alongside those of illegal drug dealers. It's still exposure to a legitimate market of legal customers, and some of those customers may rather stay at your legal business than someone's random apartment.
 
So far, two stays from the listing in the last two months. One figured out our real business name and booked via o u r online booking, the other booked through ai rB nB. On the ai rB nB, I have now upped the charge on their site to include their cut plus taxes on our end, so that the guest is not hit with extra charges once they are here.
We do have a special 'rules' form for them to sign when they get here, with contact and cc info (cc info destroyed after their visit) to avoid any problems.
 
PS My same policies apply. I have had people book from our website (since we do have one and let the name of our INN be known on the listing) so I have had people go ahead and book on our website - where they have a choice of rooms. On AirBnB I have only one room listed there (the one that books least). It is not automatically booked, so there is never an issue with double booking.
I will say, I get no spam from them, they have been the most professional "directory" I am on, hands down. Dave if you want to see my listing, you know my inn name, just search via city.
 
I am surprised that they think of our customers as the same people. B&B's of yesteryear probably resembled the Airb nb model but obviously we have eveolved into a pretty high end product here in the states. Where as a the Air crowd is pretty low end i would think. Am I wrong?
Now i have to try it out hahahha.
 
I am surprised that they think of our customers as the same people. B&B's of yesteryear probably resembled the Airb nb model but obviously we have eveolved into a pretty high end product here in the states. Where as a the Air crowd is pretty low end i would think. Am I wrong?
Now i have to try it out hahahha..
toddburme said:
I am surprised that they think of our customers as the same people. B&B's of yesteryear probably resembled the Airb nb model but obviously we have eveolved into a pretty high end product here in the states. Where as a the Air crowd is pretty low end i would think. Am I wrong?
Now i have to try it out hahahha.
Low end?
Ahhh Toddster, no that is not "it" at all. not low end. See this is why I said I am a lone voice crying in the wilderness on this. Typical would be...Wanting something fun, want to be local, they want to be "there" I think this is the difference, not looking for destination getaways. There are very high end listings, middle of the road and down to a spare room.
This is more GenYX than any B&B would be. Some funky loft apartment in the heart of a city, or a cliff overlooking the ocean near the jungles of Panama, etc.
I do agree that you may not think of our customers as the same people, that is why i listed, I want to get more GenYX, out here to hike, bike and boulder!
 
I am surprised that they think of our customers as the same people. B&B's of yesteryear probably resembled the Airb nb model but obviously we have eveolved into a pretty high end product here in the states. Where as a the Air crowd is pretty low end i would think. Am I wrong?
Now i have to try it out hahahha..
I agree with Joey here, and sounds like he would know more than me from his experience with bookings, but my impression is that Airbnb userbase is younger and more adventurous, not necessarily low end. Similar to how some people enjoy eating local when they travel, some people want to stay local as well. Airbnb seems to really be making this local lodging much more mainstream (albeit somewhat risky).
I personally think in the long run it can end up boosting the b&b industry much more than it hurts it. Like I mentioned in another post some of these people may really like the idea of staying local but not feel comfortable with the risk of staying in some random apartment, which is where b&b's could really take advantage of the service. The real benefit of the service is how big it's becoming, it's on track to become the eBay of lodging.
 
No. I'm not likely going to list my legally licenced B&B with all the illegal apartment lets. It's like standing in a room of drug dealers and trying to explain to everyone that I want to do everything legally..
Eric, care to elaborate? Do you think as a legitimate business it's harder to be successful on the website or are you just against the principal of the service?
To me it seems more like listing a phone number to your legal dispensary alongside those of illegal drug dealers. It's still exposure to a legitimate market of legal customers, and some of those customers may rather stay at your legal business than someone's random apartment.
.
Where I live you need to have a city licence and a provincial licence. You need to have three different tax numbers, not including two different income taxes (hotel tax, province tax, federal tax). You need to have a government inspection biannually, you need to go through a food safety class. You need to have first aid kits, fire extinguishers, smoke detectors. You need to have 2 million dollars in liability insurance and prove it to the government to show that it covers visitors. You have to pay higher city taxes. You have to post a sign outside. You legally must serve breakfast, live on the premises and have no more than 15 guests in 5 rooms. And we are all legally listed on the government website. Plus my business needs to be registered (even if it doesn't have a name, you still have to register.)
Almost every single one of the local listings are illegal rentals. Their insurance isn't in place, since they are in violation of their home insurance policies. They aren't paying their proper city tax, hotel tax, provincial tax, federal tax and of course, income tax. If they don't serve breakfast, their home tax should be 100% commercial, since it's a hotel, not a B&B. Do I want to be listed with this band of illegals? NOPE! Unless AirBnB has a seperate listing section... I just don't want people to even THINK that I'm doing things the way this illegal businesses are doing business.
 
No. I'm not likely going to list my legally licenced B&B with all the illegal apartment lets. It's like standing in a room of drug dealers and trying to explain to everyone that I want to do everything legally..
Eric, care to elaborate? Do you think as a legitimate business it's harder to be successful on the website or are you just against the principal of the service?
To me it seems more like listing a phone number to your legal dispensary alongside those of illegal drug dealers. It's still exposure to a legitimate market of legal customers, and some of those customers may rather stay at your legal business than someone's random apartment.
.
Where I live you need to have a city licence and a provincial licence. You need to have three different tax numbers, not including two different income taxes (hotel tax, province tax, federal tax). You need to have a government inspection biannually, you need to go through a food safety class. You need to have first aid kits, fire extinguishers, smoke detectors. You need to have 2 million dollars in liability insurance and prove it to the government to show that it covers visitors. You have to pay higher city taxes. You have to post a sign outside. You legally must serve breakfast, live on the premises and have no more than 15 guests in 5 rooms. And we are all legally listed on the government website. Plus my business needs to be registered (even if it doesn't have a name, you still have to register.)
Almost every single one of the local listings are illegal rentals. Their insurance isn't in place, since they are in violation of their home insurance policies. They aren't paying their proper city tax, hotel tax, provincial tax, federal tax and of course, income tax. If they don't serve breakfast, their home tax should be 100% commercial, since it's a hotel, not a B&B. Do I want to be listed with this band of illegals? NOPE! Unless AirBnB has a seperate listing section... I just don't want people to even THINK that I'm doing things the way this illegal businesses are doing business.
.
It is easier for most of us in the US. Yes we have higher costs and standards then the Airb nb crowd but we also offer a lot more so i would feel more comfortable then it sounds like you are with being listed.
 
No. I'm not likely going to list my legally licenced B&B with all the illegal apartment lets. It's like standing in a room of drug dealers and trying to explain to everyone that I want to do everything legally..
Eric, care to elaborate? Do you think as a legitimate business it's harder to be successful on the website or are you just against the principal of the service?
To me it seems more like listing a phone number to your legal dispensary alongside those of illegal drug dealers. It's still exposure to a legitimate market of legal customers, and some of those customers may rather stay at your legal business than someone's random apartment.
.
Where I live you need to have a city licence and a provincial licence. You need to have three different tax numbers, not including two different income taxes (hotel tax, province tax, federal tax). You need to have a government inspection biannually, you need to go through a food safety class. You need to have first aid kits, fire extinguishers, smoke detectors. You need to have 2 million dollars in liability insurance and prove it to the government to show that it covers visitors. You have to pay higher city taxes. You have to post a sign outside. You legally must serve breakfast, live on the premises and have no more than 15 guests in 5 rooms. And we are all legally listed on the government website. Plus my business needs to be registered (even if it doesn't have a name, you still have to register.)
Almost every single one of the local listings are illegal rentals. Their insurance isn't in place, since they are in violation of their home insurance policies. They aren't paying their proper city tax, hotel tax, provincial tax, federal tax and of course, income tax. If they don't serve breakfast, their home tax should be 100% commercial, since it's a hotel, not a B&B. Do I want to be listed with this band of illegals? NOPE! Unless AirBnB has a seperate listing section... I just don't want people to even THINK that I'm doing things the way this illegal businesses are doing business.
.
It is easier for most of us in the US. Yes we have higher costs and standards then the Airb nb crowd but we also offer a lot more so i would feel more comfortable then it sounds like you are with being listed.
.
I understand that, but around here, it's like asking myself to be listed among a bunch of bandits. I'm not sure if it would bring down my reputation or bring up theirs. In either case, it's not a good idea. And I can't wait for the government to do something about it.
 
Yes, if you dig back into some older threads there is info on the forum, use the google search button, or were you just wanting to share your write up?
I agree with your comments, as PAII is spearheading the "grassroots" Better Way to Stay campaign, aimed at GenYX, it seems odd that Jay is opposed to it. Heck they have some of the funkiest inns/rentals on the planet, I for one, am interested in some of those!
This is what AirBnB is about as well, BWTS although not bed and breakfast style, they are still attempting to garner GenYX guests and support. They may have liability issues on their end, esp with this latest newsworthy fiasco, but we HAVE insurance as a licensed, inspected and approved B&B, don't we? Yes. So for inns to be on AirBnB, which is totally free to list, and actually brings some great guests, I would say GO FOR IT, and I HAVE.
Payment was immediate. Guests were educated, well behaved, fun going. Leaving a review is fast and easy, responding to inquiries is fast and easy.
But you see, I am a voice in the wilderness many times on the forum. So you will have to see if anyone else here has listed with them and the results, although me thinks none have at this point. I wish I had more from that "directory."
regular_smile.gif
.
Ahh, usually when I see those google search bars on websites they actually search google, rather than the website I'm on (I'll never understand that). I assumed that's what it was, thanks for the heads up.
As for Airbnb I'm glad you had a good experience, and yes I agree many people will be against it. I think it could be a really valuable tool though, especially as it grows and becomes mainstream. Anyone who looks past it is likely missing out on some quality bookings. Do you still actively list your rooms on it?
The recent fiasco wasn't pretty for them but it did result in a $50k insurance policy for hosts, which is great. Although like you said your property should be insured anyways so those types of situations shouldn't be an issue for innkeepers.
.
Hello,
I am new hear so I apologize if I am not following any rules of the forum correctly.
What I can't figure out is why the AirBnB issue isn't the #1 issue of the year!
I read on here where people say that their customer is different than than standard B&B's. That may be correct, but in this day and age of people trying to save money, they offer a very viable alternative. And it should concern us greatly.
Folks, if you did a Google search for bed and breakfast + portland, the very first listing is for AirBnB! It is really quite shocking.
The customer base is seeing it as a reliable B&B source. If you were to advertise in it, you would be undercut in price by a half from all their other listings!
The fact is, in my city, and in most cities, this site is chock full of listings that violate our local zoning law, a low that is very similar all over the country. To heck with the transient tax law... since they shouldn't be offering their places up for rent at all in the first place due to the zoning law.
I have worked on this for a long time, and what it boils down to is: Is AirBnb an agent or not? If they are an agent, then their whole site is a scam. They claim on their site, in fine print section 7.6, which is a tax section, that they are not agents. I am not skilled enough at agency law, but it seems to me that if they are taking in the money, holding it, and then paying it out to the owners, that they seem to be agents.
What are your thoughts on this agency thing?
If they ARE an agent, even if they claim they are not, it would make a huge story. If not, then I can guarantee you that they will grow to such proportions that it will boggle you. They are growing at 1000 listings a day. They just got over 100 million bucks in venture capital, and are scheduled to go public in a year or so. They have almost 200,000 listings now. And there are at least 4 like-kind competitors, one of which just got 90 million bucks to expand.
The site is opaque, so you can't tell who the listings are. I turned in one of them, and ten more popped up. My city's zoning office, just like everywhere, are understaffed and complaint driven only. It is a never ending battle, and I have about 8 of them within a mile of me.
If you think they aren't taking business from hotels, motels and legal B&B's, you are very wrong.
They not only do rooms, but also whole places. I was talking with a friend on the street corner last weekend.... someone walked by and overheard us talking about AirBnB. She openly volunteered, out of the blue, that she rents out her condo every weekend to AirBnB people and then go stays with her parents!! When I told her about zoning law, transient tax law, insurance and her mortgage terms, she shrugged and said "I don't know anything about that stuff" and walked on.
AirBnB's pitch is simple...if you got a spare room or rooms, or a spare whole place, just put it on our site and make extra money!
I'm all for competition and new business models. But when almost every listing in my city is operating illegally, my head spins!!
Thank you all.
 
What do you all think of this paragraph from the AirBnB Terms and Conditions?
You acknowledge and agree that you are solely responsible for any and all Listings you post. Accordingly, you represent and warrant that any Listing you post and the booking of, or Guest stay at, an Accommodation in a Listing you post (i) will not breach any agreements you have entered into with any third parties and (ii) will (a) be in compliance with all applicable laws, Tax requirements, and rules and regulations that may apply to any Accommodation included in a Listing you post, including, but not limited to, zoning laws and laws governing rentals of residential and other properties and (b) not conflict with the rights of third parties. Please note that Airbnb assumes no responsibility for a Host’s compliance with any applicable laws, rules and regulations.
(emphasis added)
Would you have better luck reporting listings that are in violation of local zoning laws or who are not collecting required taxes to AirBnB than to local authorities?
 
What do you all think of this paragraph from the AirBnB Terms and Conditions?
You acknowledge and agree that you are solely responsible for any and all Listings you post. Accordingly, you represent and warrant that any Listing you post and the booking of, or Guest stay at, an Accommodation in a Listing you post (i) will not breach any agreements you have entered into with any third parties and (ii) will (a) be in compliance with all applicable laws, Tax requirements, and rules and regulations that may apply to any Accommodation included in a Listing you post, including, but not limited to, zoning laws and laws governing rentals of residential and other properties and (b) not conflict with the rights of third parties. Please note that Airbnb assumes no responsibility for a Host’s compliance with any applicable laws, rules and regulations.
(emphasis added)
Would you have better luck reporting listings that are in violation of local zoning laws or who are not collecting required taxes to AirBnB than to local authorities?.
Doubtful because all listings (illegal or not) are profitable for Airbnb. They put this language in their terms to make sure they can't be held liable. Most likely they have a policy that in order for a listing to be removed a request must be made from local authorities with jurisdiction over the property, rather than a competiting business. So still most likely your best and only hope of removing illegal listings in your area is to contact/petition your local authorities.
 
Yes, if you dig back into some older threads there is info on the forum, use the google search button, or were you just wanting to share your write up?
I agree with your comments, as PAII is spearheading the "grassroots" Better Way to Stay campaign, aimed at GenYX, it seems odd that Jay is opposed to it. Heck they have some of the funkiest inns/rentals on the planet, I for one, am interested in some of those!
This is what AirBnB is about as well, BWTS although not bed and breakfast style, they are still attempting to garner GenYX guests and support. They may have liability issues on their end, esp with this latest newsworthy fiasco, but we HAVE insurance as a licensed, inspected and approved B&B, don't we? Yes. So for inns to be on AirBnB, which is totally free to list, and actually brings some great guests, I would say GO FOR IT, and I HAVE.
Payment was immediate. Guests were educated, well behaved, fun going. Leaving a review is fast and easy, responding to inquiries is fast and easy.
But you see, I am a voice in the wilderness many times on the forum. So you will have to see if anyone else here has listed with them and the results, although me thinks none have at this point. I wish I had more from that "directory."
regular_smile.gif
.
Ahh, usually when I see those google search bars on websites they actually search google, rather than the website I'm on (I'll never understand that). I assumed that's what it was, thanks for the heads up.
As for Airbnb I'm glad you had a good experience, and yes I agree many people will be against it. I think it could be a really valuable tool though, especially as it grows and becomes mainstream. Anyone who looks past it is likely missing out on some quality bookings. Do you still actively list your rooms on it?
The recent fiasco wasn't pretty for them but it did result in a $50k insurance policy for hosts, which is great. Although like you said your property should be insured anyways so those types of situations shouldn't be an issue for innkeepers.
.
Hello,
I am new hear so I apologize if I am not following any rules of the forum correctly.
What I can't figure out is why the AirBnB issue isn't the #1 issue of the year!
I read on here where people say that their customer is different than than standard B&B's. That may be correct, but in this day and age of people trying to save money, they offer a very viable alternative. And it should concern us greatly.
Folks, if you did a Google search for bed and breakfast + portland, the very first listing is for AirBnB! It is really quite shocking.
The customer base is seeing it as a reliable B&B source. If you were to advertise in it, you would be undercut in price by a half from all their other listings!
The fact is, in my city, and in most cities, this site is chock full of listings that violate our local zoning law, a low that is very similar all over the country. To heck with the transient tax law... since they shouldn't be offering their places up for rent at all in the first place due to the zoning law.
I have worked on this for a long time, and what it boils down to is: Is AirBnb an agent or not? If they are an agent, then their whole site is a scam. They claim on their site, in fine print section 7.6, which is a tax section, that they are not agents. I am not skilled enough at agency law, but it seems to me that if they are taking in the money, holding it, and then paying it out to the owners, that they seem to be agents.
What are your thoughts on this agency thing?
If they ARE an agent, even if they claim they are not, it would make a huge story. If not, then I can guarantee you that they will grow to such proportions that it will boggle you. They are growing at 1000 listings a day. They just got over 100 million bucks in venture capital, and are scheduled to go public in a year or so. They have almost 200,000 listings now. And there are at least 4 like-kind competitors, one of which just got 90 million bucks to expand.
The site is opaque, so you can't tell who the listings are. I turned in one of them, and ten more popped up. My city's zoning office, just like everywhere, are understaffed and complaint driven only. It is a never ending battle, and I have about 8 of them within a mile of me.
If you think they aren't taking business from hotels, motels and legal B&B's, you are very wrong.
They not only do rooms, but also whole places. I was talking with a friend on the street corner last weekend.... someone walked by and overheard us talking about AirBnB. She openly volunteered, out of the blue, that she rents out her condo every weekend to AirBnB people and then go stays with her parents!! When I told her about zoning law, transient tax law, insurance and her mortgage terms, she shrugged and said "I don't know anything about that stuff" and walked on.
AirBnB's pitch is simple...if you got a spare room or rooms, or a spare whole place, just put it on our site and make extra money!
I'm all for competition and new business models. But when almost every listing in my city is operating illegally, my head spins!!
Thank you all.
.
Bill, you have very valid concerns. Unfortunately it's my opinion that it's just going to be a new market that the B&B industry will have to deal with. I think most owners are going to find what you describe, that their local authorities don't really care, or have the time or staff to deal with something so minor for them.
As for the tax agent thing, I am not a lawyer, but I know that Airbnb has ALOT of money, and very smart people running it, including lawyers and venture capitalists that are making sure the company is legally compliant. I believe they have their bases covered and won't be going anywhere.
The only thing I can recommend is to take advantage of the service as much as you can. It's still a great marketing tool, as many owners on here have verified. You mention being undercut on price, don't try to match their price, you offer more to a guest than an apartment. Don't worry about people who just want the cheapest price.
Understand that while you're listed on the same website as a shady spare apartment bedroom for $20/night, you're going after different customers than they are. Some people want to stay somewhere more personable than a hotel, but not some random spare bedroom. These are people that you should be using the service to reach. It's ok to be more expensive, you offer safety and security that cheaper listings don't.
 
David, I think you are right, but I can't help thinking about Jay Karen's statement about being able to operate on a level playing field.
As for the subject of competition, I have long thought that there were two tiers of B&B's, with one being the high-end ones, and another being lesser establishments with shared bathrooms, providing the food but with the guests making their own breakfast, continental style, and maybe with non-primo locations.
But to see all these interlopers come in, operating totally illegally, charging half the price and using a name like ___BnB, it just seems like unfair competition.
 
David, I think you are right, but I can't help thinking about Jay Karen's statement about being able to operate on a level playing field.
As for the subject of competition, I have long thought that there were two tiers of B&B's, with one being the high-end ones, and another being lesser establishments with shared bathrooms, providing the food but with the guests making their own breakfast, continental style, and maybe with non-primo locations.
But to see all these interlopers come in, operating totally illegally, charging half the price and using a name like ___BnB, it just seems like unfair competition..
I agree that it is an unfair playing field. I also agree that many of the regulations and laws that B&B's must abide by are important for guest safety. For all B&B owners, if it is something that really upsets you, I would recommend getting together with your local lodging community and put together a formal petition to local authorities. Outline exactly what properties (addresses) are listed, what they're doing that you think is illegal (what laws/ordinances they're breaking), why it's dangerous, why it's unfair, why it's stealing money from taxpayers, etc. etc. You could probably even get some larger hotels in your community on board, as it's competition for them as well. Get signatures from as many business owners/managers as possible. Then take it to the authorities and let them know that all you want them to do is contact Airbnb to have those listings removed. This takes most of the work out of it for the authorities, which is what you really need to do to have a chance of them taking it seriously.
The problem is that it's a local law issue, not federal, and I think many people will find their town/community authorities just have bigger things to worry about. Which is why I don't think Airbnb will be going anywhere, and why although you disagree with some of the competition they're facilitating, they are still a great opportunity to market your property and reach a new userbase.
 
David, I think you are right, but I can't help thinking about Jay Karen's statement about being able to operate on a level playing field.
As for the subject of competition, I have long thought that there were two tiers of B&B's, with one being the high-end ones, and another being lesser establishments with shared bathrooms, providing the food but with the guests making their own breakfast, continental style, and maybe with non-primo locations.
But to see all these interlopers come in, operating totally illegally, charging half the price and using a name like ___BnB, it just seems like unfair competition..
bill1243 said:
As for the subject of competition, I have long thought that there were two tiers of B&B's, with one being the high-end ones, and another being lesser establishments with shared bathrooms, providing the food but with the guests making their own breakfast, continental style, and maybe with non-primo locations.
Only 2 tiers? So a B&B either is worthy of Sel ect Re gis try or falls into the other mold?
Sorry there are far more that fall in the middle of the road, IMMHO!
 
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