Would you drop a B&B directory even though all of your competitors are listed?

[gillumhouse]

I have been thinking of the same issues.
To get the most bang for my buck, I ask each and every guest of mine how did they find us .
#1 is google......then a few written publications.
I have paid lots of money for advertising that has given nothing back, so i will cut them.
I also just advertised for the first time in a magazine which is distributed for free all along the Alaska Highway and in Alaska. The ad was not cheap, but people like to pick up free publications along the way.
Lets see how this one comes out at the end of the year..

I also just advertised for the first time in a magazine which is distributed for free all along the Alaska Highway and in Alaska. The ad was not cheap, but people like to pick up free publications along the way.
One way to track an ad like that is to make the ad a coupon for $$ off or an added goodie. That can help let you know how many found you there.
I dropped #1 Big Boy in Feb when the price almost doubled. Will let you know at the end of the season if it hurt me.

 

[Morticia]

Would you drop a Chamber if you didn't see a return? We belong to an adjoining town's chamber and while we have a good relationship and they actually work harder than the other two chambers in our area (really), we have not seen any ROI. They do not even show up in our webstats. I honestly don't know why, there is only one B&B in their town and they aren't members of the chamber and there are virtually no other lodging properties in their town. I'm hesitant to drop them, as I don't know if people are finding us through them but it just isn't showing up for some reason.....

Would you drop a Chamber if you didn't see a return? We belong to an adjoining town's chamber and while we have a good relationship and they actually work harder than the other two chambers in our area (really), we have not seen any ROI. They do not even show up in our webstats. I honestly don't know why, there is only one B&B in their town and they aren't members of the chamber and there are virtually no other lodging properties in their town. I'm hesitant to drop them, as I don't know if people are finding us through them but it just isn't showing up for some reason....

I had a directory guy show up at my door today. He was knocking the Chamber saying it's not a good investment. My take on it is that I don't pay the chambers (2) to be a real source of guests for me (at least not out of state tourist types) but more for what they do for the business community, for the classes they offer and for the tourist centers they run (which will hopefully send SOME business my way). So, if you get NOTHING from the chamber including no classes, no reductions on insurance premiums, business after hours meet and greets or other opportunities to advance your business, then yes, I'd give them up.
But I don't look at the chamber as a way to get heads in beds, tourist-wise. At least not directly, but indirectly by providing a good community in which to do business.
I did at first, but realize that was a mistake in my part and I'd be better off looking at everything else they provide instead.

 

[mooseberry]

Our Chaber doubles as the Tourist Info center, so they did send me quite a lot last summer. This year has been slow so far but I am certain it will get better....
Another good one in my corner is my daughter, she works as night clerk in a local hotel and sends all the overflow my way first

 

[Copperhead]

Would you drop a Chamber if you didn't see a return? We belong to an adjoining town's chamber and while we have a good relationship and they actually work harder than the other two chambers in our area (really), we have not seen any ROI. They do not even show up in our webstats. I honestly don't know why, there is only one B&B in their town and they aren't members of the chamber and there are virtually no other lodging properties in their town. I'm hesitant to drop them, as I don't know if people are finding us through them but it just isn't showing up for some reason.....

I am with Bree here! The Chamber has other benefits that help me with my business and I do not put this cost in the same category as directories as I do not consider it really advertising money. Benefits such as classes are nice and very imformative in many ways. The Networking is a great opportunity to get to know others and let them know about you. Opportunities to do some communitity benefits which also provide advertising.
My Chamber is not a tourist center but it does have info if someone stop in there. (We have a CVB that runs the tourist center here.) I have gotten some business by being a chamber member, but not nearly enough to pay for my membership. I use it as I said, community involvement, education and networking.
If the chamber is your CVB for the area, and that is the only reason you are a member, then I would drop it if it is not working and find another avenue.

 

[happykeeper]

I really love the tone of your post! It feels good to say what you think- doesn't it?!

 

[wendydk]

I really love the tone of your post! It feels good to say what you think- doesn't it?!.

I always try to be honest...altho I have to say that my B&B Association did not appreciate my honesty when I sent them the letter explaining why I was not going to remain a member. And it was a NICE letter. Honest, but nice.

 

[Willowpondgj]

Would you drop a Chamber if you didn't see a return? We belong to an adjoining town's chamber and while we have a good relationship and they actually work harder than the other two chambers in our area (really), we have not seen any ROI. They do not even show up in our webstats. I honestly don't know why, there is only one B&B in their town and they aren't members of the chamber and there are virtually no other lodging properties in their town. I'm hesitant to drop them, as I don't know if people are finding us through them but it just isn't showing up for some reason.....

I am with Bree here! The Chamber has other benefits that help me with my business and I do not put this cost in the same category as directories as I do not consider it really advertising money. Benefits such as classes are nice and very imformative in many ways. The Networking is a great opportunity to get to know others and let them know about you. Opportunities to do some communitity benefits which also provide advertising.
My Chamber is not a tourist center but it does have info if someone stop in there. (We have a CVB that runs the tourist center here.) I have gotten some business by being a chamber member, but not nearly enough to pay for my membership. I use it as I said, community involvement, education and networking.
If the chamber is your CVB for the area, and that is the only reason you are a member, then I would drop it if it is not working and find another avenue.
.

There are 3 local chambers. This one isn't the chamber for our town, but an adjoining one. Yes, they offer classes and after hours, but none of that has been of interest to us (from that chamber), the majority of our business is not local. We were just hoping for at least 1-2 referrals to pay for the annual fee, never happened. We thought this was odd, as we are the only B&B in their chamber (as I said, the one B&B that is in their town is not a member) and all the other lodging properties are generic and not in their town either...
The opinion of the majority of the business owners I have talked to, regarding all of the local chambers, is that they are not worth the money.
I wonder... at the second chamber, the person running it literally sits on the phone all day chatting with friends, although we do get a lot of hits from their site, they rank up there with our paid directories webhits...I think it is more because of the link on their site, not because of any work anyone is doing over there.
I visited the third chamber one time and the person in charge was so involved in arguing with the receptionist (literally yelling) over a person's phone inquiry, neither could take a moment to acknowledge me as a vistor. She didn't want to take the call and when she finally did she was extremely rude to the caller. It was a simple call, "When and where is such and such event"...It had been printed incorrectly in the local paper and they just wanted to know where the event was... My daughter was with me, she said, "Why would anybody want to go in there?" Nice way to welcome visitors! We aren't members of that chamber, and won't be any time soon. This was the chamber we would most likely join, if we had good feedback and experience with them, because they are the largest and most local, but no positive feedback so far and they cost 3X the price of the other two chambers. I would be mortified if our visitors were treated the way I or that caller was when we went there! I won't send guests there for info, I send them to the VCB.
We have a separate VCB that is it's own large entity, they are our largest source of referrals.

 

[happykeeper]

I really love the tone of your post! It feels good to say what you think- doesn't it?!.

I always try to be honest...altho I have to say that my B&B Association did not appreciate my honesty when I sent them the letter explaining why I was not going to remain a member. And it was a NICE letter. Honest, but nice.
.

That gets me in trouble often enough.

 

[gillumhouse]

Would you drop a Chamber if you didn't see a return? We belong to an adjoining town's chamber and while we have a good relationship and they actually work harder than the other two chambers in our area (really), we have not seen any ROI. They do not even show up in our webstats. I honestly don't know why, there is only one B&B in their town and they aren't members of the chamber and there are virtually no other lodging properties in their town. I'm hesitant to drop them, as I don't know if people are finding us through them but it just isn't showing up for some reason.....

I am with Bree here! The Chamber has other benefits that help me with my business and I do not put this cost in the same category as directories as I do not consider it really advertising money. Benefits such as classes are nice and very imformative in many ways. The Networking is a great opportunity to get to know others and let them know about you. Opportunities to do some communitity benefits which also provide advertising.
My Chamber is not a tourist center but it does have info if someone stop in there. (We have a CVB that runs the tourist center here.) I have gotten some business by being a chamber member, but not nearly enough to pay for my membership. I use it as I said, community involvement, education and networking.
If the chamber is your CVB for the area, and that is the only reason you are a member, then I would drop it if it is not working and find another avenue.
.

There are 3 local chambers. This one isn't the chamber for our town, but an adjoining one. Yes, they offer classes and after hours, but none of that has been of interest to us (from that chamber), the majority of our business is not local. We were just hoping for at least 1-2 referrals to pay for the annual fee, never happened. We thought this was odd, as we are the only B&B in their chamber (as I said, the one B&B that is in their town is not a member) and all the other lodging properties are generic and not in their town either...
The opinion of the majority of the business owners I have talked to, regarding all of the local chambers, is that they are not worth the money.
I wonder... at the second chamber, the person running it literally sits on the phone all day chatting with friends, although we do get a lot of hits from their site, they rank up there with our paid directories webhits...I think it is more because of the link on their site, not because of any work anyone is doing over there.
I visited the third chamber one time and the person in charge was so involved in arguing with the receptionist (literally yelling) over a person's phone inquiry, neither could take a moment to acknowledge me as a vistor. She didn't want to take the call and when she finally did she was extremely rude to the caller. It was a simple call, "When and where is such and such event"...It had been printed incorrectly in the local paper and they just wanted to know where the event was... My daughter was with me, she said, "Why would anybody want to go in there?" Nice way to welcome visitors! We aren't members of that chamber, and won't be any time soon. This was the chamber we would most likely join, if we had good feedback and experience with them, because they are the largest and most local, but no positive feedback so far and they cost 3X the price of the other two chambers. I would be mortified if our visitors were treated the way I or that caller was when we went there! I won't send guests there for info, I send them to the VCB.
We have a separate VCB that is it's own large entity, they are our largest source of referrals.
.

The opinion of the majority of the business owners I have talked to, regarding all of the local chambers, is that they are not worth the money.
There is a simple solution to this but it involves a bit of effort on the part of the dissatisfied business people. TAKE IT OVER! HIJACK IT!
Chambers have Boards and Officers. Vote out the do-nothings and vote in some diggers. Take over the Board and get rid of non-functioning or rude workers. Replace with people who have a passion for marketing the businesses in town.
Did that a couple times myself come to think about it. Good or bad depending on who is looking at it but at least it stopped being indifferent.

 

[Penelope]

Would you drop a Chamber if you didn't see a return? We belong to an adjoining town's chamber and while we have a good relationship and they actually work harder than the other two chambers in our area (really), we have not seen any ROI. They do not even show up in our webstats. I honestly don't know why, there is only one B&B in their town and they aren't members of the chamber and there are virtually no other lodging properties in their town. I'm hesitant to drop them, as I don't know if people are finding us through them but it just isn't showing up for some reason.....

I am with Bree here! The Chamber has other benefits that help me with my business and I do not put this cost in the same category as directories as I do not consider it really advertising money. Benefits such as classes are nice and very imformative in many ways. The Networking is a great opportunity to get to know others and let them know about you. Opportunities to do some communitity benefits which also provide advertising.
My Chamber is not a tourist center but it does have info if someone stop in there. (We have a CVB that runs the tourist center here.) I have gotten some business by being a chamber member, but not nearly enough to pay for my membership. I use it as I said, community involvement, education and networking.
If the chamber is your CVB for the area, and that is the only reason you are a member, then I would drop it if it is not working and find another avenue.
.

There are 3 local chambers. This one isn't the chamber for our town, but an adjoining one. Yes, they offer classes and after hours, but none of that has been of interest to us (from that chamber), the majority of our business is not local. We were just hoping for at least 1-2 referrals to pay for the annual fee, never happened. We thought this was odd, as we are the only B&B in their chamber (as I said, the one B&B that is in their town is not a member) and all the other lodging properties are generic and not in their town either...
The opinion of the majority of the business owners I have talked to, regarding all of the local chambers, is that they are not worth the money.
I wonder... at the second chamber, the person running it literally sits on the phone all day chatting with friends, although we do get a lot of hits from their site, they rank up there with our paid directories webhits...I think it is more because of the link on their site, not because of any work anyone is doing over there.
I visited the third chamber one time and the person in charge was so involved in arguing with the receptionist (literally yelling) over a person's phone inquiry, neither could take a moment to acknowledge me as a vistor. She didn't want to take the call and when she finally did she was extremely rude to the caller. It was a simple call, "When and where is such and such event"...It had been printed incorrectly in the local paper and they just wanted to know where the event was... My daughter was with me, she said, "Why would anybody want to go in there?" Nice way to welcome visitors! We aren't members of that chamber, and won't be any time soon. This was the chamber we would most likely join, if we had good feedback and experience with them, because they are the largest and most local, but no positive feedback so far and they cost 3X the price of the other two chambers. I would be mortified if our visitors were treated the way I or that caller was when we went there! I won't send guests there for info, I send them to the VCB.
We have a separate VCB that is it's own large entity, they are our largest source of referrals.
.

The opinion of the majority of the business owners I have talked to, regarding all of the local chambers, is that they are not worth the money.
There is a simple solution to this but it involves a bit of effort on the part of the dissatisfied business people. TAKE IT OVER! HIJACK IT!
Chambers have Boards and Officers. Vote out the do-nothings and vote in some diggers. Take over the Board and get rid of non-functioning or rude workers. Replace with people who have a passion for marketing the businesses in town.
Did that a couple times myself come to think about it. Good or bad depending on who is looking at it but at least it stopped being indifferent.
.

Good or bad depending on who is looking at it but at least it stopped being indifferent.
Apathy is the worst thing in the world for this industry.

 

[Proud Texan]

To reiterate what has been said, with limited advertising dollars it becomes incumbant upon an innkeeper to eliminate those venues that are not producing income.
We were fortunate (we thought at the time) to have a regional newspaper feature article on us when we first opened. Since then they have badgered us to place ads on a monthly basis. We saw absolutely no interest generated from either the article or the ads. We discontinued that very quickly. Why throw good money after bad?
It's the same with rack cards....worthless. Not a nibble one from those we've distributed. I track where my reservations come from and most come directly from my web site as a result of a Google search. The rest have come from B&B.com
I'll be keeping my advertising dollar in the Internet.

 

[swirt]

To reiterate what has been said, with limited advertising dollars it becomes incumbant upon an innkeeper to eliminate those venues that are not producing income.
We were fortunate (we thought at the time) to have a regional newspaper feature article on us when we first opened. Since then they have badgered us to place ads on a monthly basis. We saw absolutely no interest generated from either the article or the ads. We discontinued that very quickly. Why throw good money after bad?
It's the same with rack cards....worthless. Not a nibble one from those we've distributed. I track where my reservations come from and most come directly from my web site as a result of a Google search. The rest have come from B&B.com
I'll be keeping my advertising dollar in the Internet..

All good points. We stopped putting out rack cards for the same reason (and a few others). Did you do anything to track rack card referrals? (have them land on a specific page, analyze geographic locations for direct traffic...)

 

[JBloggs]

Rack cards are good for sending with gift certificates and inquiries we get. The other benefit is our guests take them to give to their friends, so word of mouth is probably the best use of our rack cards. If anyone does not get them at vista print - please start, easy peasy rack card for much less. You can print just 50 or 100 and when you want to reprint you can even update for no charge.

 

[Proud Texan]

To reiterate what has been said, with limited advertising dollars it becomes incumbant upon an innkeeper to eliminate those venues that are not producing income.
We were fortunate (we thought at the time) to have a regional newspaper feature article on us when we first opened. Since then they have badgered us to place ads on a monthly basis. We saw absolutely no interest generated from either the article or the ads. We discontinued that very quickly. Why throw good money after bad?
It's the same with rack cards....worthless. Not a nibble one from those we've distributed. I track where my reservations come from and most come directly from my web site as a result of a Google search. The rest have come from B&B.com
I'll be keeping my advertising dollar in the Internet..

All good points. We stopped putting out rack cards for the same reason (and a few others). Did you do anything to track rack card referrals? (have them land on a specific page, analyze geographic locations for direct traffic...)
.

All good points. We stopped putting out rack cards for the same reason (and a few others). Did you do anything to track rack card referrals? (have them land on a specific page, analyze geographic locations for direct traffic...)

Through conversations with my guests, I've determined that most have chosen our area as a destination first then looked for lodging second.
Webervations allows them to pick from a list "how they found us". Rack cards has never been chosen. I always ask for phone reservations. This is very important to me for the reasons previously cited: watching the $$$

 

[egoodell]

Our Inn is a member of this program, and while we've only taken a couple of reservations from it, the free accompanying exposure on expedia.com and hotels.com (and now travelocity.com) is worth a ton of business. Although those sites do not offer a link to our website, since joining, nearly half of our top 20 search terms now include some form of our Inn's name....this is a direct result of visitors seeing us on those sites and then researching the Inn before booking. Then, the obvious result is they book directly on our site. Thus, we snare the business without paying the big commission. And, none of the other Inns in the area appear on these sites. We ask every guest how they heard about us and our tracking program is phenomenal at showing us just where people are coming from.

And, while I was concerned about the caliber of guests that would find us on these sites, they turn out to be just as nice and considerate as everyone else.
If all of your area's innkeepers jumped off a cliff, would you?

That is so very informative! I have not joined the other directories that my competition is all on because I don't see them coming up on the first page of a Google search. I don't go past the first page myself unless I am looking for something really specific. So I don't see anyone going past the two directories that show up as number 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 since they show almost all the inns in town there.
I have been afraid to get any exposure on Expedia and the others because of the horror stories of people showing up with confirmed reservations during high season with the innkeepers not knowing anything about the reservation and having nowhere to send the guests.
So when you get this exposure is the booking still done ONLY by Bedandbreakfast dot com? You are not getting booked by Expedia, Ortitz or any of those? I would not go near that with a ten foot pole - I only have two rooms right now and will only have 5 in the future.
RIki

 

[JBloggs]

To reiterate what has been said, with limited advertising dollars it becomes incumbant upon an innkeeper to eliminate those venues that are not producing income.
We were fortunate (we thought at the time) to have a regional newspaper feature article on us when we first opened. Since then they have badgered us to place ads on a monthly basis. We saw absolutely no interest generated from either the article or the ads. We discontinued that very quickly. Why throw good money after bad?
It's the same with rack cards....worthless. Not a nibble one from those we've distributed. I track where my reservations come from and most come directly from my web site as a result of a Google search. The rest have come from B&B.com
I'll be keeping my advertising dollar in the Internet..

All good points. We stopped putting out rack cards for the same reason (and a few others). Did you do anything to track rack card referrals? (have them land on a specific page, analyze geographic locations for direct traffic...)
.

All good points. We stopped putting out rack cards for the same reason (and a few others). Did you do anything to track rack card referrals? (have them land on a specific page, analyze geographic locations for direct traffic...)

Through conversations with my guests, I've determined that most have chosen our area as a destination first then looked for lodging second.
Webervations allows them to pick from a list "how they found us". Rack cards has never been chosen. I always ask for phone reservations. This is very important to me for the reasons previously cited: watching the $$$
.

All good points. We stopped putting out rack cards for the same reason (and a few others). Did you do anything to track rack card referrals? (have them land on a specific page, analyze geographic locations for direct traffic...)

Through conversations with my guests, I've determined that most have chosen our area as a destination first then looked for lodging second.
Webervations allows them to pick from a list "how they found us". Rack cards has never been chosen. I always ask for phone reservations. This is very important to me for the reasons previously cited: watching the $$$

I agree. Rack cards would be the person on the phone calling right now for a room, not an online booking. I have had a couple call from a neary Visitor's Center as they had the rack cards in hand. Unfortunately we do not do walk ins, from reasons stated on many other threads. They are reluctant to give you their cc over the phone, want to see the rooms, etc. They will say "We are nearly there" and you run your

off getting a room ready and they do not show, they find a roadside hotel on the way. In the beginning when we first opened we would wait for these callers and they never showed, even when they said they were 10 minutes away, and we are not difficult to find. These are the same who want a room for $50.

 

[egoodell]

Rack cards are good for sending with gift certificates and inquiries we get. The other benefit is our guests take them to give to their friends, so word of mouth is probably the best use of our rack cards. If anyone does not get them at vista print - please start, easy peasy rack card for much less. You can print just 50 or 100 and when you want to reprint you can even update for no charge..

Rack cards are good for sending with gift certificates and inquiries we get. The other benefit is our guests take them to give to their friends, so word of mouth is probably the best use of our rack cards. If anyone does not get them at vista print - please start, easy peasy rack card for much less. You can print just 50 or 100 and when you want to reprint you can even update for no charge.

Now I agree and this again just goes to show that not all B&Bs are the same. Our rack cards show both the B&B and the wine tours. We often have last minute bookings for seats not filled by the rack cards being out in the wineries. And wineries are some of the best salespeople for my B&B. You would not believe how often they are asked where to stay.
We see many folks while out on tours ask us for information on our tours and b&b so we can just take a card out of the rack and give it to them.
And I think the rack cards give us a professional look.
And I agree, they are hugely affordable on Vista print. I do mine in the shiny format. And I got a grant to pay for half from my Convention Visitors Bureau. You should check them on a regular basis as they often have grants that are very easy to qualify.
Riki

 

[gillumhouse]

To reiterate what has been said, with limited advertising dollars it becomes incumbant upon an innkeeper to eliminate those venues that are not producing income.
We were fortunate (we thought at the time) to have a regional newspaper feature article on us when we first opened. Since then they have badgered us to place ads on a monthly basis. We saw absolutely no interest generated from either the article or the ads. We discontinued that very quickly. Why throw good money after bad?
It's the same with rack cards....worthless. Not a nibble one from those we've distributed. I track where my reservations come from and most come directly from my web site as a result of a Google search. The rest have come from B&B.com
I'll be keeping my advertising dollar in the Internet..

I do kepp printing brochures. I have them at the Welcome Centers and at least one of the Welcome Centers has my brochure in the 24/7 area. But mostly I keep them for my guests to take back home with them to give to friends, to keep in my purse (heavy enough to use as a lethal weapon because it is full of my brochures, MABB Directories, and Rail-Trail info - money is wishful thinking) to be able to hand out when "giving my commercial" (which I do frequrntly). A few days ago I was at the flower shop and the lady next to me saw my magnetic signs on my car and asked about the B & B (into the trunk for brochures).
Magnetic signs for the sides of you car are a good investment. I have them from VistaPrint.. I am getting ready to order them from my brochure printer to see how they hold up. The print on the sign on the driver's door is flaking off and the other side is not far behind it in flaking.
While driving down the road they are not that visible BUT I was found by the lady who hit my car in the grocery lot because of my signs and more than one conversation has begun in a parking lot because of them. Excellent advertising as you travel your area, shop, or go on vacation. I never stop marketing my inn.

 

[Morticia]

Rack cards are good for sending with gift certificates and inquiries we get. The other benefit is our guests take them to give to their friends, so word of mouth is probably the best use of our rack cards. If anyone does not get them at vista print - please start, easy peasy rack card for much less. You can print just 50 or 100 and when you want to reprint you can even update for no charge..

Rack cards are good for sending with gift certificates and inquiries we get. The other benefit is our guests take them to give to their friends, so word of mouth is probably the best use of our rack cards. If anyone does not get them at vista print - please start, easy peasy rack card for much less. You can print just 50 or 100 and when you want to reprint you can even update for no charge.

One of my rack cards went home to Italy in June last summer and came back in August with a different couple! I haven't replenished my stock in 2 years. I need to redesign and go color with them. This just shows how few get picked up at the tourist info centers, but why not be there just in case. It only takes a couple of bookings to pay for the cards and it gives me something to hand out besides biz cards.

 

[muirford]

To reiterate what has been said, with limited advertising dollars it becomes incumbant upon an innkeeper to eliminate those venues that are not producing income.
We were fortunate (we thought at the time) to have a regional newspaper feature article on us when we first opened. Since then they have badgered us to place ads on a monthly basis. We saw absolutely no interest generated from either the article or the ads. We discontinued that very quickly. Why throw good money after bad?
It's the same with rack cards....worthless. Not a nibble one from those we've distributed. I track where my reservations come from and most come directly from my web site as a result of a Google search. The rest have come from B&B.com
I'll be keeping my advertising dollar in the Internet..

All good points. We stopped putting out rack cards for the same reason (and a few others). Did you do anything to track rack card referrals? (have them land on a specific page, analyze geographic locations for direct traffic...)
.

All good points. We stopped putting out rack cards for the same reason (and a few others). Did you do anything to track rack card referrals? (have them land on a specific page, analyze geographic locations for direct traffic...)

Through conversations with my guests, I've determined that most have chosen our area as a destination first then looked for lodging second.
Webervations allows them to pick from a list "how they found us". Rack cards has never been chosen. I always ask for phone reservations. This is very important to me for the reasons previously cited: watching the $$$
.

Guests have picked up our rack card at our local restuarants, at our town CVB and our county CVB and contacted us through that. So we still print them. Although we spend 90% of our advertising $$ on internet stuff, and get a lot for free, we still have some print ads - state travel guide, sometimes an appropriate magazine. I'm not ready to give up all print advertising yet.