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risks I take into consideration: someone could steal my artwork, bang into my car, fall on the stairs, spill on my rug, puke in my bathroom, burn the house down with candles and cigarettes.
risks I have never considered: someone might make meth in my house.
I'm a compliance officer in my non-inn life and I just don't see it as a huge risk.
 
risks I take into consideration: someone could steal my artwork, bang into my car, fall on the stairs, spill on my rug, puke in my bathroom, burn the house down with candles and cigarettes.
risks I have never considered: someone might make meth in my house.
I'm a compliance officer in my non-inn life and I just don't see it as a huge risk..
I have worked in multiple industries including compliance, insurance, financial, etc.
Someone puking on a rug is not a major issue. Bed bugs is an annoying issue. Someone making meth in the building can ruin the business - and potentially cause an explosion. And it is quite possible it is NOT covered by insurance.
Anyone from certain parts of the country (eg, TN and some others), especially police, will tell you it is a huge, monumental risk and issue. Whatever happens in one place, will eventually find its way to rural sleepy villages in New England, etc.
 
i don't think you need all that 'security' ... and taking before and after pics of the room would likely get very old fast.
this sounds more like a hotel than a b&b. your guests want to feel and be safe. you want to feel and be safe. but a lot of visible security measures make me wonder if i'm in a high crime area and may backfire on you.
maybe you are over thinking because you are anxious to get going?
if i were you while you wait for permitting etc., i'd put my energy into creating room manuals and building the website. gathering photos of the area and learning what will pull guests in..
The only visible security measure is the camera (and stickers). Photographing a room after guests leave, or a few license plates takes 30 seconds. Obviously having not opened yet, how much or little damage guests can cause to a room in the "inn"dustry is unknown. People often target a motel/B&B for a meth lab or inappropriate activity. As a longterm landlord in half decent areas, and having dealt with drug dealers, bed bugs/fleas introduced by guests, 1 prostitute, ruined carpets, etc. that is what I have to go on.
Much of the reaction here was unnecessary. This is the opposite reaction to the intensive fuming over a guest who possibly brought in an unregistered guest in the other thread. Just depends on which button is pressed.
Definitely plan room manuals.
.
B&Bs are often targeted for meth labs?
Oh, my!
.
Momma Smurf said:
B&Bs are often targeted for meth labs? Oh, my!
That doesn't seem likely.
Maybe a place where no one is on site. Ever. But it's hard to set up a meth lab in a room that is inspected every day. The smell alone would give it away.
.
Google "motel meth lab" and you will get a lot of results.
In some areas of the country (such as TN), it is a huge problem. People often target motels, hotels, inns, as it is not their home and harder to catch someone. You can make a lot of meth in a very short time.
And if someone does make meth even for one night, it can be a disaster for the owner. You have to go through very expensive cleanup and certification before you can use the room again (and the building may be unusable for a time). And I believe it also has to be reported to a prospective future buyer, Not to mention that can turn up in people's search results for the address.
.
Take the word 'inn' and add any other words you want in a Google search and you will find a story to raise your hair. Including meth labs, whorehouses, etc.
Some kids died at an 'inn' in NY that was being used as some sort of 'fresh air' summer camp.
An innkeeper was murdered by a long term tenant.
Rat infested inns have been shut down by the board of health.
One innkeeper installed video cameras in bathrooms and got found out when a guest saw him watching a video of herself in her bathroom.
Everything is possible. Most of it is not likely to happen in the types of businesses the people on this forum operate. Almost 100% are owner occupied 100% of the time. We never leave guests alone in the house. Someone is always here, always visible, always watching.
My guess is, yes, you might have problems with problem guests. So, yes, you will need a security system, possibly a cage to sit behind when you handle check ins in cash. Yes, you should photograph the rooms and the license plates and have 24 hour video surveillance and someone at the front desk at all times. Why? Because it will make you comfortable.
There's nothing wrong with locked doors. Our doors are locked at all times. Electronically operated door locks are easily installed. You operate them from your phone. You have a daily report of what codes were used on what doors at what time. That way you know if the housekeeper came in after hours if anything is missing. You know the guest in room 2 has a really bad cigarette habit when you see they were in and out 10 times during the night. This type of door lock will help you sleep at night.
You should take every precaution you have mentioned, including internet searches on all incoming guests. And ask for id from every person who enters the premises.
If you're planning to hire employees you will need a drug testing company and a company to provide bonding for those employees.
If you are planning to be armed you'll need, probably, this is state dependent, to have a class or two and a concealed carry permit.
You need to do what you're comfortable with. And that's the bottom line. You seem to be more comfortable with the high tech way of doing business. So you can't not work that way or you'll be uncomfortable and the guests will sense that.
It's what we all do - what works for us in the location we have with the guests we have.
 
i don't think you need all that 'security' ... and taking before and after pics of the room would likely get very old fast.
this sounds more like a hotel than a b&b. your guests want to feel and be safe. you want to feel and be safe. but a lot of visible security measures make me wonder if i'm in a high crime area and may backfire on you.
maybe you are over thinking because you are anxious to get going?
if i were you while you wait for permitting etc., i'd put my energy into creating room manuals and building the website. gathering photos of the area and learning what will pull guests in..
The only visible security measure is the camera (and stickers). Photographing a room after guests leave, or a few license plates takes 30 seconds. Obviously having not opened yet, how much or little damage guests can cause to a room in the "inn"dustry is unknown. People often target a motel/B&B for a meth lab or inappropriate activity. As a longterm landlord in half decent areas, and having dealt with drug dealers, bed bugs/fleas introduced by guests, 1 prostitute, ruined carpets, etc. that is what I have to go on.
Much of the reaction here was unnecessary. This is the opposite reaction to the intensive fuming over a guest who possibly brought in an unregistered guest in the other thread. Just depends on which button is pressed.
Definitely plan room manuals.
.
B&Bs are often targeted for meth labs?
Oh, my!
.
Momma Smurf said:
B&Bs are often targeted for meth labs? Oh, my!
That doesn't seem likely.
Maybe a place where no one is on site. Ever. But it's hard to set up a meth lab in a room that is inspected every day. The smell alone would give it away.
.
Google "motel meth lab" and you will get a lot of results.
In some areas of the country (such as TN), it is a huge problem. People often target motels, hotels, inns, as it is not their home and harder to catch someone. You can make a lot of meth in a very short time.
And if someone does make meth even for one night, it can be a disaster for the owner. You have to go through very expensive cleanup and certification before you can use the room again (and the building may be unusable for a time). And I believe it also has to be reported to a prospective future buyer, Not to mention that can turn up in people's search results for the address.
.
These are situations where owner is not present. The thing about a B&B is that owner is most likely present and watching for more hours than any other type of establishment.
If you are going to do a meth lab, AirBnB is the best choice, owner not present... almost absentee. B&B, completely the opposite... the worst choice. Heck, someone tried to throw a party here and had it shut down before the 5th person got in the building.
 
I would not be taking photos of my rooms on a routine basis (I don't have time!). Sure, IF (big if) there were substantial damage that was going to cost a mint to fix I would want to document it, and then I would take photos (probably just use my cell-phone, or run back to the office to get my "real" camera). But it really is not necessary on a routine basis.
Does your registration paper work already ask for license plate and car info? Taking pictures of the cars every night sure seems like paranoia personified.
Obvious visible stickers about a security system would be fine, as long as they are not so intrusive that they turn your guests off.
A fake security camera would be a lot less expensive than a real one, and to the extent that you are making the camera visible as a deterrent, probably just as effective. We had a theft from my day job building once, and even though we've got security cameras at each entrance, they were ineffective in helping to identify the perpetrator. My boss said there was an awful lot of footage to look through to find the theft, and then the perp somehow managed to keep him or herself concealed from the view of the camera such that he or she could not be identified.
It is not meant to be a security thing, but we have a webcam mounted high on our front porch looking out at our view (see http://webcam.harborfields.com ) Some guests are wary of it, although most aren't bothered, if they are even aware of it.
Simultaneously locking locks? Sounds expensive. Can you really justify that expense?
I have to confess that, as others have noted, with your screening question, and now these security questions, it does raise questions about whether B&B specifically and hospitality more generally is the right business for you to get in to. Sure, it is important to set your policies and marketing so that your guests pre-screen themselves, and it is important to have appropriate security measures in place -- appropriate for your location and your clientele -- but the key word is "appropriate." ETA -- like Morticia says later in this thread, do whatever you feel you need to do, whatever makes you comfortable...
 
I find your ideas way over the top. Either you are in high crime area (not appropriate for B&B) or you personally insecure (not a right person for this type of business)
 
well i suppose anything is possible ... i've heard of such things in walmart restrooms ... but i've never heard of this happening in b&b's hoping i never do.
but how would taking pictures of rooms and license plates on cars and locks on doors prevent registered guests from setting up a 'meth lab'?
hopefully by fluffing the room each morning at about 11 (with say a 5 pm check-in which was average check in for my guests) you'd spot any such activity and call police. as an on site innkeeper, any weird smell would get my attention. i didn't have guest kitchens, so they'd have to set up in the bathroom or bedroom - not an ideal place for cooking anything.
 
well i suppose anything is possible ... i've heard of such things in walmart restrooms ... but i've never heard of this happening in b&b's hoping i never do.
but how would taking pictures of rooms and license plates on cars and locks on doors prevent registered guests from setting up a 'meth lab'?
hopefully by fluffing the room each morning at about 11 (with say a 5 pm check-in which was average check in for my guests) you'd spot any such activity and call police. as an on site innkeeper, any weird smell would get my attention. i didn't have guest kitchens, so they'd have to set up in the bathroom or bedroom - not an ideal place for cooking anything..
I worked at a national park lodge over 10 years ago that had a guest start a meth lab in a basic hotel room. It had no kitchen and they still did it. It caused people to get sick in the building. Hazmat came in and shut the place down and the room was out of service for a long time.
 
scrambled, was there staff on site at the lodge 24/7? just wondering.
 
One of the things customers tell us all the time is how secure they feel at BnB's compared to hotels/motels. But if you look like you are going out of your way with security then they will believe they are less secure. Unless you are in a bad neighborhood or expect/have had a lot of trouble, I would skip things like stickers for XXX security Co. I always tell customers if we are awake the front door is unlocked.
 
now let's see how long it takes for this conversation to show up elsewhere ...
 
I know you are just pulling our leg now Unders.
Where are you opening this B&B, on Rikers Island?
shades_smile.gif
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Joey Bloggs said:
I know you are just pulling our leg now Unders.
Where are you opening this B&B, on Rikers Island?
shades_smile.gif
nail on head
 
risks I take into consideration: someone could steal my artwork, bang into my car, fall on the stairs, spill on my rug, puke in my bathroom, burn the house down with candles and cigarettes.
risks I have never considered: someone might make meth in my house.
I'm a compliance officer in my non-inn life and I just don't see it as a huge risk..
I have worked in multiple industries including compliance, insurance, financial, etc.
Someone puking on a rug is not a major issue. Bed bugs is an annoying issue. Someone making meth in the building can ruin the business - and potentially cause an explosion. And it is quite possible it is NOT covered by insurance.
Anyone from certain parts of the country (eg, TN and some others), especially police, will tell you it is a huge, monumental risk and issue. Whatever happens in one place, will eventually find its way to rural sleepy villages in New England, etc.
.
perhaps, but when I worry, it won't be about traveling meth labs in the Pebble Beach Room.
 
risks I take into consideration: someone could steal my artwork, bang into my car, fall on the stairs, spill on my rug, puke in my bathroom, burn the house down with candles and cigarettes.
risks I have never considered: someone might make meth in my house.
I'm a compliance officer in my non-inn life and I just don't see it as a huge risk..
I have worked in multiple industries including compliance, insurance, financial, etc.
Someone puking on a rug is not a major issue. Bed bugs is an annoying issue. Someone making meth in the building can ruin the business - and potentially cause an explosion. And it is quite possible it is NOT covered by insurance.
Anyone from certain parts of the country (eg, TN and some others), especially police, will tell you it is a huge, monumental risk and issue. Whatever happens in one place, will eventually find its way to rural sleepy villages in New England, etc.
.
perhaps, but when I worry, it won't be about traveling meth labs in the Pebble Beach Room.
.
people find things humorous when they ignore risk. Few people thought a hurricane would cause such widespread devastation to the NJ/NY/CT region. Or people sitting in the WTC never thought about anyone flying into the building and ending their lives. I saw the smoking towers that morning from our NJ work location. People never expected the mortgage/financial crisis in 2007. Not to mention Black Friday, Pearl Harbor, or a thousand other things. People do not expect their business partner/spouse to die, until they do.
In investing/business, it is called Risk Adjusted Reward. Or in stock/futures trading, it is called Risk of Ruin. I am reminded of the Coyote, when Bugs pulled his shack onto the train tracks. When the Coyote saw the oncoming train, his reaction was to pull down the blinds.
Thinking this cannot happen to them is not a wise business practice.
 
scrambled, was there staff on site at the lodge 24/7? just wondering..
Yes there was staff 24/7 We had 102 guest rooms. I was night auditor often working 11pm-7am. We also had someone go crazy and smear human excrement on the walls of a room and then disappear. Car was in parking lot but could not find them. The past 10 years in the B & B business I have only had one problem with a guest going crazy on me and messing a room up. They were arrested and put in jail.
 
risks I take into consideration: someone could steal my artwork, bang into my car, fall on the stairs, spill on my rug, puke in my bathroom, burn the house down with candles and cigarettes.
risks I have never considered: someone might make meth in my house.
I'm a compliance officer in my non-inn life and I just don't see it as a huge risk..
I have worked in multiple industries including compliance, insurance, financial, etc.
Someone puking on a rug is not a major issue. Bed bugs is an annoying issue. Someone making meth in the building can ruin the business - and potentially cause an explosion. And it is quite possible it is NOT covered by insurance.
Anyone from certain parts of the country (eg, TN and some others), especially police, will tell you it is a huge, monumental risk and issue. Whatever happens in one place, will eventually find its way to rural sleepy villages in New England, etc.
.
perhaps, but when I worry, it won't be about traveling meth labs in the Pebble Beach Room.
.
people find things humorous when they ignore risk. Few people thought a hurricane would cause such widespread devastation to the NJ/NY/CT region. Or people sitting in the WTC never thought about anyone flying into the building and ending their lives. I saw the smoking towers that morning from our NJ work location. People never expected the mortgage/financial crisis in 2007. Not to mention Black Friday, Pearl Harbor, or a thousand other things. People do not expect their business partner/spouse to die, until they do.
In investing/business, it is called Risk Adjusted Reward. Or in stock/futures trading, it is called Risk of Ruin. I am reminded of the Coyote, when Bugs pulled his shack onto the train tracks. When the Coyote saw the oncoming train, his reaction was to pull down the blinds.
Thinking this cannot happen to them is not a wise business practice.
.
Head in sand here. There's no way to be in this business if I expect the worst of everyone who comes thru the door.
Yes, ugliness may happen. People with evil agendas are around every corner. Happily, the good people are 99% of the population.
Like I said yesterday, you have to run your business how you see fit.
And, yes, humor is how people deal with stress.
 
risks I take into consideration: someone could steal my artwork, bang into my car, fall on the stairs, spill on my rug, puke in my bathroom, burn the house down with candles and cigarettes.
risks I have never considered: someone might make meth in my house.
I'm a compliance officer in my non-inn life and I just don't see it as a huge risk..
I have worked in multiple industries including compliance, insurance, financial, etc.
Someone puking on a rug is not a major issue. Bed bugs is an annoying issue. Someone making meth in the building can ruin the business - and potentially cause an explosion. And it is quite possible it is NOT covered by insurance.
Anyone from certain parts of the country (eg, TN and some others), especially police, will tell you it is a huge, monumental risk and issue. Whatever happens in one place, will eventually find its way to rural sleepy villages in New England, etc.
.
perhaps, but when I worry, it won't be about traveling meth labs in the Pebble Beach Room.
.
people find things humorous when they ignore risk. Few people thought a hurricane would cause such widespread devastation to the NJ/NY/CT region. Or people sitting in the WTC never thought about anyone flying into the building and ending their lives. I saw the smoking towers that morning from our NJ work location. People never expected the mortgage/financial crisis in 2007. Not to mention Black Friday, Pearl Harbor, or a thousand other things. People do not expect their business partner/spouse to die, until they do.
In investing/business, it is called Risk Adjusted Reward. Or in stock/futures trading, it is called Risk of Ruin. I am reminded of the Coyote, when Bugs pulled his shack onto the train tracks. When the Coyote saw the oncoming train, his reaction was to pull down the blinds.
Thinking this cannot happen to them is not a wise business practice.
.
Head in sand here. There's no way to be in this business if I expect the worst of everyone who comes thru the door.
Yes, ugliness may happen. People with evil agendas are around every corner. Happily, the good people are 99% of the population.
Like I said yesterday, you have to run your business how you see fit.
And, yes, humor is how people deal with stress.
.
Morticia said:
Head in sand here. There's no way to be in this business if I expect the worst of everyone who comes thru the door.
Yes, ugliness may happen. People with evil agendas are around every corner. Happily, the good people are 99% of the population.
Like I said yesterday, you have to run your business how you see fit.
And, yes, humor is how people deal with stress.
The very first night we were in business, I said to my husband as we went to sleep, "There are strangers in our house." It was a very odd and somewhat scary feeling. That was the last time I worried about it. We lock the adjoining door and have smoke detectors. We have liability and replacement insurance. Not much more we can do after that.
 
risks I take into consideration: someone could steal my artwork, bang into my car, fall on the stairs, spill on my rug, puke in my bathroom, burn the house down with candles and cigarettes.
risks I have never considered: someone might make meth in my house.
I'm a compliance officer in my non-inn life and I just don't see it as a huge risk..
I have worked in multiple industries including compliance, insurance, financial, etc.
Someone puking on a rug is not a major issue. Bed bugs is an annoying issue. Someone making meth in the building can ruin the business - and potentially cause an explosion. And it is quite possible it is NOT covered by insurance.
Anyone from certain parts of the country (eg, TN and some others), especially police, will tell you it is a huge, monumental risk and issue. Whatever happens in one place, will eventually find its way to rural sleepy villages in New England, etc.
.
perhaps, but when I worry, it won't be about traveling meth labs in the Pebble Beach Room.
.
people find things humorous when they ignore risk. Few people thought a hurricane would cause such widespread devastation to the NJ/NY/CT region. Or people sitting in the WTC never thought about anyone flying into the building and ending their lives. I saw the smoking towers that morning from our NJ work location. People never expected the mortgage/financial crisis in 2007. Not to mention Black Friday, Pearl Harbor, or a thousand other things. People do not expect their business partner/spouse to die, until they do.
In investing/business, it is called Risk Adjusted Reward. Or in stock/futures trading, it is called Risk of Ruin. I am reminded of the Coyote, when Bugs pulled his shack onto the train tracks. When the Coyote saw the oncoming train, his reaction was to pull down the blinds.
Thinking this cannot happen to them is not a wise business practice.
.
Head in sand here. There's no way to be in this business if I expect the worst of everyone who comes thru the door.
Yes, ugliness may happen. People with evil agendas are around every corner. Happily, the good people are 99% of the population.
Like I said yesterday, you have to run your business how you see fit.
And, yes, humor is how people deal with stress.
.
Morticia said:
Head in sand here. There's no way to be in this business if I expect the worst of everyone who comes thru the door.
Yes, ugliness may happen. People with evil agendas are around every corner. Happily, the good people are 99% of the population.
Like I said yesterday, you have to run your business how you see fit.
And, yes, humor is how people deal with stress.
The very first night we were in business, I said to my husband as we went to sleep, "There are strangers in our house." It was a very odd and somewhat scary feeling. That was the last time I worried about it. We lock the adjoining door and have smoke detectors. We have liability and replacement insurance. Not much more we can do after that.
.
If I think about it I still feel this is one of the oddest jobs in the world.
 
risks I take into consideration: someone could steal my artwork, bang into my car, fall on the stairs, spill on my rug, puke in my bathroom, burn the house down with candles and cigarettes.
risks I have never considered: someone might make meth in my house.
I'm a compliance officer in my non-inn life and I just don't see it as a huge risk..
I have worked in multiple industries including compliance, insurance, financial, etc.
Someone puking on a rug is not a major issue. Bed bugs is an annoying issue. Someone making meth in the building can ruin the business - and potentially cause an explosion. And it is quite possible it is NOT covered by insurance.
Anyone from certain parts of the country (eg, TN and some others), especially police, will tell you it is a huge, monumental risk and issue. Whatever happens in one place, will eventually find its way to rural sleepy villages in New England, etc.
.
perhaps, but when I worry, it won't be about traveling meth labs in the Pebble Beach Room.
.
people find things humorous when they ignore risk. Few people thought a hurricane would cause such widespread devastation to the NJ/NY/CT region. Or people sitting in the WTC never thought about anyone flying into the building and ending their lives. I saw the smoking towers that morning from our NJ work location. People never expected the mortgage/financial crisis in 2007. Not to mention Black Friday, Pearl Harbor, or a thousand other things. People do not expect their business partner/spouse to die, until they do.
In investing/business, it is called Risk Adjusted Reward. Or in stock/futures trading, it is called Risk of Ruin. I am reminded of the Coyote, when Bugs pulled his shack onto the train tracks. When the Coyote saw the oncoming train, his reaction was to pull down the blinds.
Thinking this cannot happen to them is not a wise business practice.
.
This is called Life. I used to be the ultimate worrier who was convinced disaster lurked around every corner.... then 9/11 happened whilst living 20 minutes from DC and I became much wiser ... to the drone of Black Hawk helicopters circling for weeks, the smoldering Pentagon, and the taint of anthrax on every piece of mail. I can't predict or control these once in a lifetime catastrophic events, no need to waste the effort. I devote my business time and expenses to making sure our guests have the best RELAXING experience they could have imagined. In order to live life fully (and manage a successful business) balance is key, not over-reacting to a myriad of endless unlikely possibilities.
 
risks I take into consideration: someone could steal my artwork, bang into my car, fall on the stairs, spill on my rug, puke in my bathroom, burn the house down with candles and cigarettes.
risks I have never considered: someone might make meth in my house.
I'm a compliance officer in my non-inn life and I just don't see it as a huge risk..
I have worked in multiple industries including compliance, insurance, financial, etc.
Someone puking on a rug is not a major issue. Bed bugs is an annoying issue. Someone making meth in the building can ruin the business - and potentially cause an explosion. And it is quite possible it is NOT covered by insurance.
Anyone from certain parts of the country (eg, TN and some others), especially police, will tell you it is a huge, monumental risk and issue. Whatever happens in one place, will eventually find its way to rural sleepy villages in New England, etc.
.
perhaps, but when I worry, it won't be about traveling meth labs in the Pebble Beach Room.
.
people find things humorous when they ignore risk. Few people thought a hurricane would cause such widespread devastation to the NJ/NY/CT region. Or people sitting in the WTC never thought about anyone flying into the building and ending their lives. I saw the smoking towers that morning from our NJ work location. People never expected the mortgage/financial crisis in 2007. Not to mention Black Friday, Pearl Harbor, or a thousand other things. People do not expect their business partner/spouse to die, until they do.
In investing/business, it is called Risk Adjusted Reward. Or in stock/futures trading, it is called Risk of Ruin. I am reminded of the Coyote, when Bugs pulled his shack onto the train tracks. When the Coyote saw the oncoming train, his reaction was to pull down the blinds.
Thinking this cannot happen to them is not a wise business practice.
.
Head in sand here. There's no way to be in this business if I expect the worst of everyone who comes thru the door.
Yes, ugliness may happen. People with evil agendas are around every corner. Happily, the good people are 99% of the population.
Like I said yesterday, you have to run your business how you see fit.
And, yes, humor is how people deal with stress.
.
Morticia said:
Head in sand here. There's no way to be in this business if I expect the worst of everyone who comes thru the door.
Yes, ugliness may happen. People with evil agendas are around every corner. Happily, the good people are 99% of the population.
Like I said yesterday, you have to run your business how you see fit.
And, yes, humor is how people deal with stress.
The very first night we were in business, I said to my husband as we went to sleep, "There are strangers in our house." It was a very odd and somewhat scary feeling. That was the last time I worried about it. We lock the adjoining door and have smoke detectors. We have liability and replacement insurance. Not much more we can do after that.
.
If I think about it I still feel this is one of the oddest jobs in the world.
.
Couldn't agree more - it's been 10 years and now we're realizing that if we're going to have longevity we're building a little house next door and renting out our bedroom for more income. No longer will I lay my head down to sleep and have strangers in my HOME (I say HOME because to me I gave up my HOME 10 years ago and had space in the B&B but not our own FAMILY HOME). No longer will I have housekeeping staff in my personal space while I'm trying to eat my lunch or having a talk with my children. It will be so wonderful this summer to have a HOME again that the only people who are in it are family or close friends - no strangers or staff. To aspiring innkeepers, make sure you're fine with this or find a place with a separate space.
 
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