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If we gave the $10 to book online that would have been $50. We have the verbage that says NO VALID WITH GIFT CERT's OR OTHER SPECIALS/DISCOUNTS..
John here from BedandBreakfast.com.
Ultimately we think this gift card program benefits the entire industry. There are not many ways for the industry to gain prominence out there - and having a program where a consumer can stay at 4,000 inns is very appealing from a consumer point of view. It is through programs like this where the entire industry is going to get elevated a notch - because in a large scale we can impact many many more customers. If inns do not want to accept them because of our commission, I understand, but I'd like you to put yourselves in our shoes for a minute and really consider the economics.
We incur a LOT of expenses to make this program happen. For starters, we pay the credit card fees on everything - which is almost 3% for these online transactions. Then we custom print every single card on 30mm plastic with custom images. We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments - so we have elevated the quality of our own card product to look as good as an iTunes card, or Hilton, or Starbucks - so from the first impression they start to see how good the B&B industry can be.
So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well. Then you have to add the equipment - the most basic card-printing machine is almost a five digit investment, and you can't just have one in case a machine breaks - which it does pretty regularly. Add to that all of the industrial color laser printers, air-feed folders, etc. and you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc. Then someone needs to run and maintain this product - there needs to be a team from putting the pieces together on every order, to shipping, dealing with bad credit cards, customers calling in because they lost a card or it didn't show up in the mail. There is a pretty big staff involved with making this happen, and that staff has real costs - salaries, healthcare, etc. Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations. And all of these costs do not even consider the retail channels. For the retail certificates - we literally have to custom design every order, each card carrier is different for each retailer, and we have to fill every single retail store with cards up front - whether they sell or not - and we have to pay for them all in advance, and pay a percentage of every card to the retaier. I do not even want to go into the math because the outlay on it is so large.
At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card. Often it is a guest they would not have received if they did not accept the card, and always the card must be accepted for any reservation (those are the rules of the program so that it isn't seen as an airline-mileage deal where you buy them then can never use them). An innkeeper pays no credit card fee on the dollars redeemed... so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%. Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value. So after credit card fees - the inn absorbs a true 12% on the face value, and if the consumer spends more (we have pretty good stats that show the average redeemed cert is for 50-60% of the stay), then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so.
Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product. We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going. Hopefully this gives you a better picture that this product isn't as simple as it looks.
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Many are just printing the gift certificates online. That is what this couple had. No plastic printing costs incurred.
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We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used. Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year. Roughly 80% of the orders are for plastic, and even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc. So the costs are slightly lower using the e-certs, but not as low as when we started the program and we didn't mail anything. Just a year ago we still had a service fee for online orders, and charged for shipping, etc. - so we are eating all of those costs now as well.
 
If we gave the $10 to book online that would have been $50. We have the verbage that says NO VALID WITH GIFT CERT's OR OTHER SPECIALS/DISCOUNTS..
John here from BedandBreakfast.com.
Ultimately we think this gift card program benefits the entire industry. There are not many ways for the industry to gain prominence out there - and having a program where a consumer can stay at 4,000 inns is very appealing from a consumer point of view. It is through programs like this where the entire industry is going to get elevated a notch - because in a large scale we can impact many many more customers. If inns do not want to accept them because of our commission, I understand, but I'd like you to put yourselves in our shoes for a minute and really consider the economics.
We incur a LOT of expenses to make this program happen. For starters, we pay the credit card fees on everything - which is almost 3% for these online transactions. Then we custom print every single card on 30mm plastic with custom images. We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments - so we have elevated the quality of our own card product to look as good as an iTunes card, or Hilton, or Starbucks - so from the first impression they start to see how good the B&B industry can be.
So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well. Then you have to add the equipment - the most basic card-printing machine is almost a five digit investment, and you can't just have one in case a machine breaks - which it does pretty regularly. Add to that all of the industrial color laser printers, air-feed folders, etc. and you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc. Then someone needs to run and maintain this product - there needs to be a team from putting the pieces together on every order, to shipping, dealing with bad credit cards, customers calling in because they lost a card or it didn't show up in the mail. There is a pretty big staff involved with making this happen, and that staff has real costs - salaries, healthcare, etc. Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations. And all of these costs do not even consider the retail channels. For the retail certificates - we literally have to custom design every order, each card carrier is different for each retailer, and we have to fill every single retail store with cards up front - whether they sell or not - and we have to pay for them all in advance, and pay a percentage of every card to the retaier. I do not even want to go into the math because the outlay on it is so large.
At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card. Often it is a guest they would not have received if they did not accept the card, and always the card must be accepted for any reservation (those are the rules of the program so that it isn't seen as an airline-mileage deal where you buy them then can never use them). An innkeeper pays no credit card fee on the dollars redeemed... so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%. Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value. So after credit card fees - the inn absorbs a true 12% on the face value, and if the consumer spends more (we have pretty good stats that show the average redeemed cert is for 50-60% of the stay), then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so.
Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product. We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going. Hopefully this gives you a better picture that this product isn't as simple as it looks.
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John,
What is going on with your ranking on google natural results? In our state (Colorado), you are now page 3 for "colorado bed and breakfast" and page 6 for "bed and breakfast colorado". Your pay-per-click ads don't show till pages 2 and 3 respectively for these queries. Obviously, with these results you are placing behind your key competitors. Is this happening everywhere?
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Brendan, we had a whole discussion on this for months. Virginia is not showing either and when approached was told WE NEVER PROMISED YOU GOOGLE RESULTS. Virginia is still not showing up, yet my own website shows up from my own - unprofessional unpaid webdesign and marketing skills.
I cringe to think of what answers will come up now. Apparently it is being worked on and we are to suck it up.
(See winewitch, many of us have negatory stuff to say about that directory)
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This is such a hard subject because, quite frankly JBJ, I do not believe there is really anything I can say that is going to make you happy. We run a business here, and we try like hell to make it work as best we can, just like I am sure you do with yours. For the most part, we usually do a good job. I'm sure you get guests that don't like your service, or your property, or think you are too high priced, or don't like something about what you are doing, and I'm sure you try your best to fix it. My guess is that sometimes you can, and sometimes you can't - just like us.
I can assure you that we work long hours, have dedicated people who love this industry, listen to every request, and try to do the best we can with our business for innkeepers. Do I like the fact that we have a few state pages that are mysteriously suffering right now in Google? No way - but am I sitting on my heels doing nothing about it? No way. We've had two different search consultants scratching their heads on this. At the end of the day though, believe me - I go home to my wife and kid at night with a clear conscience knowing that we are trying like crazy to do the best we can, despite all the negativity that gets cast on us whenever something doesn't go exactly according to how every innkeeper wants it to go.
And yes - we can't promise Google results. No one in their right mind would go around promising this as no one can guarantee getting it - or sustaining it. If anyone promises this to you, then I would not believe them. Most innkeepers put some value in all of the rest of the marketing we do, the PR, the partnerships we have established with Expedia, hotels.com, Sidestep, Kayak, and now sites like ASU Travel (the airline employee site), Uptake.com, and others. Most look at our overall traffic and determine whether they are getting a return on investment on it or not (which our internal tracker is not working correctly btw - so we are reporting zero's for May in a lot of cases and trying to get that fixed).
So if you are not seeing a return on investment, and put no value in anything else we do besides Google placements, then I can understand why you feel you should not list on the site. But if you are seeing more dollars back on reservations than on your marketing spend with us, then I'm not sure that would be a good business decision. Ultimately the negativity towards us doesn't get anyone anywhere - we are not bad people here and we are not out to get anyone - we try hard here to make this business work.
 
JBJ -
Not sure what to say about this one. We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers. We get a lot more customer data from a guest, we alert innkeepers when a review is posted, we let you immediately reply to each post, and we often require proof of stay to post a review. Innkeepers often told us that guest would leave a property and forget to go back online and post a review, so we came up with this card program where we pay for all of the costs so there is a better chance to get the reviews in the first place. Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable. They certainly are miles and miles better than nothing at all.
So to hear that you think this is "The ultimate of Lame" is pretty disappointing. We've stuck our neck and our pocketbooks way out on this to try and do something good here for innkeepers and the industry. Luckily thousands of innkeepers appreciate this and have seen great results, and we get phone calls and emails all of the time thanking us for providing some type of alternative to Trip Advisor.
 
JBJ -
Not sure what to say about this one. We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers. We get a lot more customer data from a guest, we alert innkeepers when a review is posted, we let you immediately reply to each post, and we often require proof of stay to post a review. Innkeepers often told us that guest would leave a property and forget to go back online and post a review, so we came up with this card program where we pay for all of the costs so there is a better chance to get the reviews in the first place. Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable. They certainly are miles and miles better than nothing at all.
So to hear that you think this is "The ultimate of Lame" is pretty disappointing. We've stuck our neck and our pocketbooks way out on this to try and do something good here for innkeepers and the industry. Luckily thousands of innkeepers appreciate this and have seen great results, and we get phone calls and emails all of the time thanking us for providing some type of alternative to Trip Advisor..
John,

Let me start by saying that I am not anti-B&B.com. I have a four-room B&B, which to me seems to be an average size, but I suspect is considered “small” to you. I do want to explore what you've said and discuss the issue rationally...

In Post #2810 you said, "We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. "

This is the first I've heard of that. So far I've only heard of GC's being bought at Costco and being printed out online. How do you keep the directory up to date? If I join B&B.com tomorrow and elect to take GC's, how long until I'm listed in the directory?

Post #2810: "The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments"

What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small? If so, then maybe it's good that I'm not in the program. What is meant by professional? If you mean large, impersonal, and run by staff, then no thanks! There's an active and interesting thread about a girl who got all B&B GC's for Christmas and is at this moment traveling through New Engand staying at B&B's. I have to say that her experiences have been a sad reflection on the larger "professional" establishments. The thread can be found at: [COLOR= purple]https://www.innspiring.com/node/278[/COLOR], which includes a link to her very interesting blog.

Post #2810 "So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well."

So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead.

Post #2810: "you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc."

Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?

Post #2810: "Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations."

Now this I can believe!

Post #2810: "At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card."

Or maybe just an online certificate.

Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%"

I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).

Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value."

I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.

Post #2810: "then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so."

If they spend more than the value, which is not a given. The real cost is about 13%. Now briarrose had a good point... many of us give 10% discounts for all kinds of reasons, and from that perspective, 10% is not a big deal, so why should 13% irk so much? The answer, of course, is that we've already given our 10% discount for senior/ clergy/ military/ early/ late/ online/ off season/ pity's sake, and now there's this 13% on top of it because, after all, we can't limit the reservations in this program. Then it's 23%. Ouch!

Post #2810: “Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product.”

No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours.

Post #2810: “We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going.”

No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.

Post #2884: “I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.”

Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.

Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”

If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.

Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”

Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.

Post #2884: “In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.”

Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]

Post #2887: “We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.”

Are you saying that use has declined?

Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.”

So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?

Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”

Why?
Post #2887: “so we are eating all of those costs now as well.”

Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.

Post #2890: “So if you are not seeing a return on investment, and put no value in anything else we do besides Google placements, then I can understand why you feel you should not list on the site. But if you are seeing more dollars back on reservations than on your marketing spend with us, then I'm not sure that would be a good business decision.”

This is interesting to me because I have not listed with B&B.com. I am being easily found by people searching for a B&B in my area, so I’m not sure I can justify the cost of the listing. I’d have to get several reservations that wouldn’t have come otherwise, which would be difficult to determine. And I’m still bugged by the lowest level not having links. But just now I noticed your 90 day trial period and three free months… ah, but only at your first functional level, Silver.

Post #2890: “Ultimately the negativity towards us doesn't get anyone anywhere - we are not bad people here and we are not out to get anyone”

It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.

Post #2895: “We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers.”

The idea of replacing TA sounds fabulous to me. But since you only review inns that are members, it’s not a true replacment, and doesn’t benefit us itty bitty non-member inns.

Post #2895: “Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable.”

Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.

=)
Kk.
 
JBJ -
Not sure what to say about this one. We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers. We get a lot more customer data from a guest, we alert innkeepers when a review is posted, we let you immediately reply to each post, and we often require proof of stay to post a review. Innkeepers often told us that guest would leave a property and forget to go back online and post a review, so we came up with this card program where we pay for all of the costs so there is a better chance to get the reviews in the first place. Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable. They certainly are miles and miles better than nothing at all.
So to hear that you think this is "The ultimate of Lame" is pretty disappointing. We've stuck our neck and our pocketbooks way out on this to try and do something good here for innkeepers and the industry. Luckily thousands of innkeepers appreciate this and have seen great results, and we get phone calls and emails all of the time thanking us for providing some type of alternative to Trip Advisor..
I think part of the problem is that the default for the dots is 'mediocre'. The default should probably be non-existent and there should be directions to click on the dots, numbered 1-5, with an explanation that '1' is 'Stay Away!' and '5' is 'Heaven on Earth!'
I'm guessing many guests bypass my B&B on your site to go to my competitors with the reviews. OTOH, my TA reviews are great and I get a lot of bookings from them.
You probably read in this forum that I have yet to have one guest take the review cards even with a big notice on the breakfast board that they could win a $250 GC for another stay. (I don't take your GC's but I'd figure out a way to honor the one someone won if they won it with a review of my place.)
My guests just don't seem to be interested in doing reviews of any kind. In the 4 years that I've had TA reviews, I still only have 20. But they're good ones.
I do have to say, totally off the topic, that your website takes a dog's age to load. Today it took so long my husband wandered by, saw the big blue screen and asked if my computer had died. Additionally wondering why there is a featured review of an inn in another town on my town's listing? Do I pay to have a featured review listed on the competing town's page?
 
JBJ -
Not sure what to say about this one. We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers. We get a lot more customer data from a guest, we alert innkeepers when a review is posted, we let you immediately reply to each post, and we often require proof of stay to post a review. Innkeepers often told us that guest would leave a property and forget to go back online and post a review, so we came up with this card program where we pay for all of the costs so there is a better chance to get the reviews in the first place. Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable. They certainly are miles and miles better than nothing at all.
So to hear that you think this is "The ultimate of Lame" is pretty disappointing. We've stuck our neck and our pocketbooks way out on this to try and do something good here for innkeepers and the industry. Luckily thousands of innkeepers appreciate this and have seen great results, and we get phone calls and emails all of the time thanking us for providing some type of alternative to Trip Advisor..
John,

Let me start by saying that I am not anti-B&B.com. I have a four-room B&B, which to me seems to be an average size, but I suspect is considered “small” to you. I do want to explore what you've said and discuss the issue rationally...

In Post #2810 you said, "We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. "

This is the first I've heard of that. So far I've only heard of GC's being bought at Costco and being printed out online. How do you keep the directory up to date? If I join B&B.com tomorrow and elect to take GC's, how long until I'm listed in the directory?

Post #2810: "The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments"

What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small? If so, then maybe it's good that I'm not in the program. What is meant by professional? If you mean large, impersonal, and run by staff, then no thanks! There's an active and interesting thread about a girl who got all B&B GC's for Christmas and is at this moment traveling through New Engand staying at B&B's. I have to say that her experiences have been a sad reflection on the larger "professional" establishments. The thread can be found at: [COLOR= purple]https://www.innspiring.com/node/278[/COLOR], which includes a link to her very interesting blog.

Post #2810 "So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well."

So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead.

Post #2810: "you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc."

Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?

Post #2810: "Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations."

Now this I can believe!

Post #2810: "At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card."

Or maybe just an online certificate.

Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%"

I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).

Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value."

I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.

Post #2810: "then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so."

If they spend more than the value, which is not a given. The real cost is about 13%. Now briarrose had a good point... many of us give 10% discounts for all kinds of reasons, and from that perspective, 10% is not a big deal, so why should 13% irk so much? The answer, of course, is that we've already given our 10% discount for senior/ clergy/ military/ early/ late/ online/ off season/ pity's sake, and now there's this 13% on top of it because, after all, we can't limit the reservations in this program. Then it's 23%. Ouch!

Post #2810: “Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product.”

No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours.

Post #2810: “We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going.”

No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.

Post #2884: “I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.”

Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.

Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”

If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.

Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”

Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.

Post #2884: “In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.”

Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]

Post #2887: “We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.”

Are you saying that use has declined?

Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.”

So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?

Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”

Why?
Post #2887: “so we are eating all of those costs now as well.”

Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.

Post #2890: “So if you are not seeing a return on investment, and put no value in anything else we do besides Google placements, then I can understand why you feel you should not list on the site. But if you are seeing more dollars back on reservations than on your marketing spend with us, then I'm not sure that would be a good business decision.”

This is interesting to me because I have not listed with B&B.com. I am being easily found by people searching for a B&B in my area, so I’m not sure I can justify the cost of the listing. I’d have to get several reservations that wouldn’t have come otherwise, which would be difficult to determine. And I’m still bugged by the lowest level not having links. But just now I noticed your 90 day trial period and three free months… ah, but only at your first functional level, Silver.

Post #2890: “Ultimately the negativity towards us doesn't get anyone anywhere - we are not bad people here and we are not out to get anyone”

It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.

Post #2895: “We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers.”

The idea of replacing TA sounds fabulous to me. But since you only review inns that are members, it’s not a true replacment, and doesn’t benefit us itty bitty non-member inns.

Post #2895: “Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable.”

Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.

=)
Kk.
.
Now that is a long post! Guess we know there is no limit - don't tell Eric G though - he'll use all the space he can get! Good questions though - I've been typing this for a long time now. For some reason I'm having trouble with the length/paragraph returns in the system, so apologize if this is a little choppy. I'm trying to answer them all:
On the directory - yes - we started that last fall. Been going out with everthing except the retail hanger cards (CVS, Office Depot, Safeway, etc. only allow hangers). We re-order/re-print the directory every quarter.
You Said: What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small?
My Response: Every survey we have seen shows something like only 3-4% of travelers consider staying at a B&B. They think "homestay" when they think of a B&B... extra bedroom with shared bath in a small house. That just isn't the case - the overwhelmingy majority of properties are 3-4 rooms or larger with private baths. Half of our properties are 7 rooms or under, half are larger, so at 4 rooms you pretty much fit right in.
You Said: So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead. ...you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc. Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?
My Response: Exactly - so we need to make something to cover our overhead as well. We have tried to outsource as well. There is really only one company that does it, and they force you into selling every guest a greeting card, no flexibility on shipping prices, and you have no real control. They handle some pretty big clients - but their entire service went down last December - a couple weeks before the holidays - and didn't come up until mid-late Jan!!!!! Believe me - I'd love to outsource it - it is a big operation and must be done in a very secure environment.
You Said: Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%".... I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).
My Response: Check the average price of online transactions - not swiped... any transaction done over the web is "non-qualified.." So you are looking at a rate of roughly 2.5% plus trans fees for Visa/MC, and a lot more for Amex. We process credit cards for hundreds of inns through RezOvation using PAI (Tom Weiskotten) and Intuit - and 3% including swiped is on the very low end for average landed cost.
You Said: Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value.".... I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.
There is a post right in this thread from Briar Rose that says "usually only a portion of the stay is paid with a GC..." I have numerous other quotes from properties saying exactly the same thing. Until you try it for yourself though, it is hard to find out.
You Said: No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours. No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.My Response: I certainly can't lose money on this program... but how much lower can I go on this? I'd challenge you to sit in my shoes for a few months and come up with a better/cheaper/more effective solution. I'm certainly not the smartest guy on the planet, but we've got a pretty good team looking at the best ways to do this.
You Said: Post #2884: “I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.” ... Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.
My Response: We do take it into consideration, but we have to make some money on this, or we will not be able to promote it and pay salaries and rent for very long. I can't tell you how many times I have heard innkeepers complain about guests wanting a discount, or not wanting to pay peak season rates, or higher weekend rates, etc. to an inn. Why doesn't every inn just drop their weekend rates? Why do inns charge peak season rates when it is the same room and the costs are the same as the off-season? Why not just lower prices in general? Why do some inns offer gourmet coffee and others do not? Why do some have 300ct sheets and others do not? All good questions - and the answers are that every inn manages their operation to the best of their ability and sets costs accordingly so that they can stay in business. So do we - and netting 12% is pretty thin.
You Said: Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”... If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.
My Response: And we could tout it all the way into bankruptcy!
Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”
You Said: Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.
My Response: Again - this seems to me just like a guest complaining that your inn is over-priced. You can't run your inn for a lot less per room, and at this low of a net, with all the production costs, overhead and shipping, how could we even keep this product afloat?
Your Post: Post #2884: “In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.” ...Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]
My Reponse: This gets back to the whole "benefit of the doubt" thing I posted on months ago. You obviously didn't know how complex it is - but I'd think that the question would be a "why do you charge 15%... not "15% is a ripoff..."
Your Said: Post #2887: “We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.” Are you saying that use has declined?
My Reponse: Well, that is a tough question. With the economy, things are a little flat - but purchasers have shifted greatly to the plastic cards instead of online ever since we waived the service and shipping fees. It only makes sense. What you see is a LOT of online orders on December 24th and the morning of the 25th!!! (Including mine one year)
You Said: Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.” So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?
My Response: No - but what we saw was that a lot of companies started offering free shipping and so on. So if Giftcertificates.com, or Travelocity starts doing free shipping on gift cards - then we need to do it to stay competitive.
You Said: Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”
My Response: Because we want the people that buy online as well to have a nice product.
You Said: Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.
My Response: Well, we haven't changed our commission in four years, and we've added all of these extra costs and distributors over the past 12-18 months... so you are paying the same, and we are taking the extra costs out of our own pockets - so no, you are not eating them at all.
You Said: It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.
My Response: We employed less than 20 people for all of BedandBreakfast.com and RezOvation when we moved to Austin, TX, and today we are still below 40... so we do feel the negativity a little more than Microsoft. We are a very small business here. You might not know it based on the quality of products we are delivering - but that is a good thing as far as we are concerned!
You Said: Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.
My Response: Have you seen the cards? The font is about as small as is legible - we really have squeezed the max out of these things. We could drop the guest qualification areas (age, sex, how many times have you stayed in a B&B, etc. - but that is the type of info we want to get. The truth is that while most innkeepers like to see lots of free-form text comments, consumers really like the ratings... so we are meeting somewhere in between).
 
If we gave the $10 to book online that would have been $50. We have the verbage that says NO VALID WITH GIFT CERT's OR OTHER SPECIALS/DISCOUNTS..
John here from BedandBreakfast.com.
Ultimately we think this gift card program benefits the entire industry. There are not many ways for the industry to gain prominence out there - and having a program where a consumer can stay at 4,000 inns is very appealing from a consumer point of view. It is through programs like this where the entire industry is going to get elevated a notch - because in a large scale we can impact many many more customers. If inns do not want to accept them because of our commission, I understand, but I'd like you to put yourselves in our shoes for a minute and really consider the economics.
We incur a LOT of expenses to make this program happen. For starters, we pay the credit card fees on everything - which is almost 3% for these online transactions. Then we custom print every single card on 30mm plastic with custom images. We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments - so we have elevated the quality of our own card product to look as good as an iTunes card, or Hilton, or Starbucks - so from the first impression they start to see how good the B&B industry can be.
So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well. Then you have to add the equipment - the most basic card-printing machine is almost a five digit investment, and you can't just have one in case a machine breaks - which it does pretty regularly. Add to that all of the industrial color laser printers, air-feed folders, etc. and you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc. Then someone needs to run and maintain this product - there needs to be a team from putting the pieces together on every order, to shipping, dealing with bad credit cards, customers calling in because they lost a card or it didn't show up in the mail. There is a pretty big staff involved with making this happen, and that staff has real costs - salaries, healthcare, etc. Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations. And all of these costs do not even consider the retail channels. For the retail certificates - we literally have to custom design every order, each card carrier is different for each retailer, and we have to fill every single retail store with cards up front - whether they sell or not - and we have to pay for them all in advance, and pay a percentage of every card to the retaier. I do not even want to go into the math because the outlay on it is so large.
At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card. Often it is a guest they would not have received if they did not accept the card, and always the card must be accepted for any reservation (those are the rules of the program so that it isn't seen as an airline-mileage deal where you buy them then can never use them). An innkeeper pays no credit card fee on the dollars redeemed... so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%. Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value. So after credit card fees - the inn absorbs a true 12% on the face value, and if the consumer spends more (we have pretty good stats that show the average redeemed cert is for 50-60% of the stay), then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so.
Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product. We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going. Hopefully this gives you a better picture that this product isn't as simple as it looks.
.
John,
What is going on with your ranking on google natural results? In our state (Colorado), you are now page 3 for "colorado bed and breakfast" and page 6 for "bed and breakfast colorado". Your pay-per-click ads don't show till pages 2 and 3 respectively for these queries. Obviously, with these results you are placing behind your key competitors. Is this happening everywhere?
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No problem in CT. bedandbreakfast.com comes up first after the sponsored links when you type "Connecticut Bed and Breakfast" and second when you type "Bed and Breakfast Connecticut" (bbonline is first for that one).
 
So I guess you can only make posts that are favorable to bandb.com here? Mine is no longer posted, I only spoke from my experience and said nothing that was untrue..
Winewitch repost it. Noone deleted it. BandB.com has nothing to do with this forum. Post whatever you like. Feedback on all directories and programs is APPRECIATED.
.
Actually, all of you pretty much covered my grievances:
Poor customer service, having to call repeatedly to resolve issues that never should have been issues to begin with, not having calls returned, dealing with rude customer service reps and also having to go up the chain in order to get any results. We eventually got results, but the treatment and hassle we have had to deal with have made us seriously consider discontinuing the "service". We are tired of the awkward situations we are faced with when resolving booking problems at check-in that are not the guests fault or our fault. Guests shouldn't have to deal with it.
Being told by bandb.com to charge our guests for mistakes made by BandB.com or their affiliates, which we refuse to do!
Extremely poor communication -especially when 3rd party booking agents (expedia, hotels, etc.)are involved, leading to guests who are upset about charges they were never informed of, which had they booked directly with us-never would have been an issue. This turns the guests off of booking online.
Also the price guarantee they offer, guests have noticed they can get a better deal when they book with us directly, unfortunately they do not find out until after they've checked in and they are past the time line where Bandb.com will refund the difference. I have had guests feel cheated by this. I guess that is the plus side, we will get the return business and not bandb.com .
Months of waiting for information to be updated properly. Still waiting.
On top of it, only a handful of the guests have been a good fit for us, there have been a lot of problems, not that the guests were really at any fault, because they weren't informed of our policies when the vendor booked them or because the policies on the 3rd party sites weren't checked for accuracy or were not updated. We have NO WAY to access the information to change it because it's all done through the 3rd party web managers, who probably aren't human or are halfway around the world.
Have had those gift cards sitting on the shelf for months, haven't sold a one.
The commissions are ridiculously over priced.

Our guests are not at all interested in filling out the cards, I think they are a waste of paper and environmentally unconscious to boot! How many trees will be cut down so we can look forward to a mediocre review, 9 out of 10 ending up in the trash! If guests are going to leave a review they'd prefer to do it online and you just have to accept that maybe one in ten, if you're lucky, will do so, (Even if they raved about their experience to you in person!)
I really feel the web exposure is about the only thing going for bandb.com. I really had high hopes when I joined, but I now I just feel like we're being nickel and dimed.
I also agree with the other recent posting, I do not think vendors should be allowed to post here. After seeing the bandb.com posts, it made me wonder who's fronting this site and made me feel that my posts wouldn't be of value here.
And it's funny, I've seen more response here from bandb.com than we've ever gotten on the phone with them, which makes sense I guess, bandb.com is saving face on this public site, potential customers and all. Wish we got that kind of response when we called customer service, I might be writing a different post!
 
JBJ -
Not sure what to say about this one. We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers. We get a lot more customer data from a guest, we alert innkeepers when a review is posted, we let you immediately reply to each post, and we often require proof of stay to post a review. Innkeepers often told us that guest would leave a property and forget to go back online and post a review, so we came up with this card program where we pay for all of the costs so there is a better chance to get the reviews in the first place. Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable. They certainly are miles and miles better than nothing at all.
So to hear that you think this is "The ultimate of Lame" is pretty disappointing. We've stuck our neck and our pocketbooks way out on this to try and do something good here for innkeepers and the industry. Luckily thousands of innkeepers appreciate this and have seen great results, and we get phone calls and emails all of the time thanking us for providing some type of alternative to Trip Advisor..
John,

Let me start by saying that I am not anti-B&B.com. I have a four-room B&B, which to me seems to be an average size, but I suspect is considered “small” to you. I do want to explore what you've said and discuss the issue rationally...

In Post #2810 you said, "We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. "

This is the first I've heard of that. So far I've only heard of GC's being bought at Costco and being printed out online. How do you keep the directory up to date? If I join B&B.com tomorrow and elect to take GC's, how long until I'm listed in the directory?

Post #2810: "The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments"

What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small? If so, then maybe it's good that I'm not in the program. What is meant by professional? If you mean large, impersonal, and run by staff, then no thanks! There's an active and interesting thread about a girl who got all B&B GC's for Christmas and is at this moment traveling through New Engand staying at B&B's. I have to say that her experiences have been a sad reflection on the larger "professional" establishments. The thread can be found at: [COLOR= purple]https://www.innspiring.com/node/278[/COLOR], which includes a link to her very interesting blog.

Post #2810 "So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well."

So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead.

Post #2810: "you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc."

Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?

Post #2810: "Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations."

Now this I can believe!

Post #2810: "At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card."

Or maybe just an online certificate.

Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%"

I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).

Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value."

I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.

Post #2810: "then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so."

If they spend more than the value, which is not a given. The real cost is about 13%. Now briarrose had a good point... many of us give 10% discounts for all kinds of reasons, and from that perspective, 10% is not a big deal, so why should 13% irk so much? The answer, of course, is that we've already given our 10% discount for senior/ clergy/ military/ early/ late/ online/ off season/ pity's sake, and now there's this 13% on top of it because, after all, we can't limit the reservations in this program. Then it's 23%. Ouch!

Post #2810: “Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product.”

No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours.

Post #2810: “We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going.”

No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.

Post #2884: “I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.”

Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.

Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”

If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.

Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”

Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.

Post #2884: “In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.”

Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]

Post #2887: “We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.”

Are you saying that use has declined?

Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.”

So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?

Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”

Why?
Post #2887: “so we are eating all of those costs now as well.”

Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.

Post #2890: “So if you are not seeing a return on investment, and put no value in anything else we do besides Google placements, then I can understand why you feel you should not list on the site. But if you are seeing more dollars back on reservations than on your marketing spend with us, then I'm not sure that would be a good business decision.”

This is interesting to me because I have not listed with B&B.com. I am being easily found by people searching for a B&B in my area, so I’m not sure I can justify the cost of the listing. I’d have to get several reservations that wouldn’t have come otherwise, which would be difficult to determine. And I’m still bugged by the lowest level not having links. But just now I noticed your 90 day trial period and three free months… ah, but only at your first functional level, Silver.

Post #2890: “Ultimately the negativity towards us doesn't get anyone anywhere - we are not bad people here and we are not out to get anyone”

It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.

Post #2895: “We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers.”

The idea of replacing TA sounds fabulous to me. But since you only review inns that are members, it’s not a true replacment, and doesn’t benefit us itty bitty non-member inns.

Post #2895: “Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable.”

Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.

=)
Kk.
.
Yellow Socks, I love you.
 
If we gave the $10 to book online that would have been $50. We have the verbage that says NO VALID WITH GIFT CERT's OR OTHER SPECIALS/DISCOUNTS..
John here from BedandBreakfast.com.
Ultimately we think this gift card program benefits the entire industry. There are not many ways for the industry to gain prominence out there - and having a program where a consumer can stay at 4,000 inns is very appealing from a consumer point of view. It is through programs like this where the entire industry is going to get elevated a notch - because in a large scale we can impact many many more customers. If inns do not want to accept them because of our commission, I understand, but I'd like you to put yourselves in our shoes for a minute and really consider the economics.
We incur a LOT of expenses to make this program happen. For starters, we pay the credit card fees on everything - which is almost 3% for these online transactions. Then we custom print every single card on 30mm plastic with custom images. We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments - so we have elevated the quality of our own card product to look as good as an iTunes card, or Hilton, or Starbucks - so from the first impression they start to see how good the B&B industry can be.
So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well. Then you have to add the equipment - the most basic card-printing machine is almost a five digit investment, and you can't just have one in case a machine breaks - which it does pretty regularly. Add to that all of the industrial color laser printers, air-feed folders, etc. and you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc. Then someone needs to run and maintain this product - there needs to be a team from putting the pieces together on every order, to shipping, dealing with bad credit cards, customers calling in because they lost a card or it didn't show up in the mail. There is a pretty big staff involved with making this happen, and that staff has real costs - salaries, healthcare, etc. Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations. And all of these costs do not even consider the retail channels. For the retail certificates - we literally have to custom design every order, each card carrier is different for each retailer, and we have to fill every single retail store with cards up front - whether they sell or not - and we have to pay for them all in advance, and pay a percentage of every card to the retaier. I do not even want to go into the math because the outlay on it is so large.
At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card. Often it is a guest they would not have received if they did not accept the card, and always the card must be accepted for any reservation (those are the rules of the program so that it isn't seen as an airline-mileage deal where you buy them then can never use them). An innkeeper pays no credit card fee on the dollars redeemed... so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%. Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value. So after credit card fees - the inn absorbs a true 12% on the face value, and if the consumer spends more (we have pretty good stats that show the average redeemed cert is for 50-60% of the stay), then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so.
Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product. We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going. Hopefully this gives you a better picture that this product isn't as simple as it looks.
.
John, we have gone around with this before. If your company was not making a nice tidy profit with the GC program, you would not do it. We are business people who really do understand overhead and profit. Yes, we know you have overhead and we also know, every time we come up for renewal, that you are making a tidy profit.
In many ways, I do not believe the GC is doing us a favor. Here is one - daughter gives Mom & Dad a GC as a gift thinking "Oh how wonderful this is going to be" having seen a particular inn. Mom & Dad are NOT B & B people and never will be and when they go to use the GC do not go to the inn daughter had in mind that Mom would love. Mom & Dad are not really happy because they did not relax because they were staying "in someone's house" rather than the impersonal hotel/motel they are accustomed to. Innkeeper is not happy because innkeeper knows that no matter what has been done, these guests are not happy - and on top of everything else, 15% of the total will not hit their bank account and in my case, I will not only be paying the sales tax on the total charged (OK I got that from the guest), but I will be paying income taxes on the total revenue AND in my town B & O (business & occupation tax) on my GROSS revenues.
You have your "party" line and we have our opinions based on our individual businesses - I do not take them. I do my own GC because I get to keep all of it - the money. For them what likes them, great. From this innkeeper you get raspberries about the GC.
 
JBJ -
Not sure what to say about this one. We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers. We get a lot more customer data from a guest, we alert innkeepers when a review is posted, we let you immediately reply to each post, and we often require proof of stay to post a review. Innkeepers often told us that guest would leave a property and forget to go back online and post a review, so we came up with this card program where we pay for all of the costs so there is a better chance to get the reviews in the first place. Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable. They certainly are miles and miles better than nothing at all.
So to hear that you think this is "The ultimate of Lame" is pretty disappointing. We've stuck our neck and our pocketbooks way out on this to try and do something good here for innkeepers and the industry. Luckily thousands of innkeepers appreciate this and have seen great results, and we get phone calls and emails all of the time thanking us for providing some type of alternative to Trip Advisor..
John,

Let me start by saying that I am not anti-B&B.com. I have a four-room B&B, which to me seems to be an average size, but I suspect is considered “small” to you. I do want to explore what you've said and discuss the issue rationally...

In Post #2810 you said, "We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. "

This is the first I've heard of that. So far I've only heard of GC's being bought at Costco and being printed out online. How do you keep the directory up to date? If I join B&B.com tomorrow and elect to take GC's, how long until I'm listed in the directory?

Post #2810: "The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments"

What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small? If so, then maybe it's good that I'm not in the program. What is meant by professional? If you mean large, impersonal, and run by staff, then no thanks! There's an active and interesting thread about a girl who got all B&B GC's for Christmas and is at this moment traveling through New Engand staying at B&B's. I have to say that her experiences have been a sad reflection on the larger "professional" establishments. The thread can be found at: [COLOR= purple]https://www.innspiring.com/node/278[/COLOR], which includes a link to her very interesting blog.

Post #2810 "So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well."

So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead.

Post #2810: "you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc."

Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?

Post #2810: "Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations."

Now this I can believe!

Post #2810: "At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card."

Or maybe just an online certificate.

Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%"

I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).

Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value."

I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.

Post #2810: "then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so."

If they spend more than the value, which is not a given. The real cost is about 13%. Now briarrose had a good point... many of us give 10% discounts for all kinds of reasons, and from that perspective, 10% is not a big deal, so why should 13% irk so much? The answer, of course, is that we've already given our 10% discount for senior/ clergy/ military/ early/ late/ online/ off season/ pity's sake, and now there's this 13% on top of it because, after all, we can't limit the reservations in this program. Then it's 23%. Ouch!

Post #2810: “Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product.”

No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours.

Post #2810: “We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going.”

No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.

Post #2884: “I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.”

Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.

Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”

If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.

Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”

Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.

Post #2884: “In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.”

Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]

Post #2887: “We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.”

Are you saying that use has declined?

Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.”

So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?

Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”

Why?
Post #2887: “so we are eating all of those costs now as well.”

Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.

Post #2890: “So if you are not seeing a return on investment, and put no value in anything else we do besides Google placements, then I can understand why you feel you should not list on the site. But if you are seeing more dollars back on reservations than on your marketing spend with us, then I'm not sure that would be a good business decision.”

This is interesting to me because I have not listed with B&B.com. I am being easily found by people searching for a B&B in my area, so I’m not sure I can justify the cost of the listing. I’d have to get several reservations that wouldn’t have come otherwise, which would be difficult to determine. And I’m still bugged by the lowest level not having links. But just now I noticed your 90 day trial period and three free months… ah, but only at your first functional level, Silver.

Post #2890: “Ultimately the negativity towards us doesn't get anyone anywhere - we are not bad people here and we are not out to get anyone”

It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.

Post #2895: “We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers.”

The idea of replacing TA sounds fabulous to me. But since you only review inns that are members, it’s not a true replacment, and doesn’t benefit us itty bitty non-member inns.

Post #2895: “Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable.”

Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.

=)
Kk.
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Now that is a long post! Guess we know there is no limit - don't tell Eric G though - he'll use all the space he can get! Good questions though - I've been typing this for a long time now. For some reason I'm having trouble with the length/paragraph returns in the system, so apologize if this is a little choppy. I'm trying to answer them all:
On the directory - yes - we started that last fall. Been going out with everthing except the retail hanger cards (CVS, Office Depot, Safeway, etc. only allow hangers). We re-order/re-print the directory every quarter.
You Said: What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small?
My Response: Every survey we have seen shows something like only 3-4% of travelers consider staying at a B&B. They think "homestay" when they think of a B&B... extra bedroom with shared bath in a small house. That just isn't the case - the overwhelmingy majority of properties are 3-4 rooms or larger with private baths. Half of our properties are 7 rooms or under, half are larger, so at 4 rooms you pretty much fit right in.
You Said: So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead. ...you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc. Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?
My Response: Exactly - so we need to make something to cover our overhead as well. We have tried to outsource as well. There is really only one company that does it, and they force you into selling every guest a greeting card, no flexibility on shipping prices, and you have no real control. They handle some pretty big clients - but their entire service went down last December - a couple weeks before the holidays - and didn't come up until mid-late Jan!!!!! Believe me - I'd love to outsource it - it is a big operation and must be done in a very secure environment.
You Said: Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%".... I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).
My Response: Check the average price of online transactions - not swiped... any transaction done over the web is "non-qualified.." So you are looking at a rate of roughly 2.5% plus trans fees for Visa/MC, and a lot more for Amex. We process credit cards for hundreds of inns through RezOvation using PAI (Tom Weiskotten) and Intuit - and 3% including swiped is on the very low end for average landed cost.
You Said: Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value.".... I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.
There is a post right in this thread from Briar Rose that says "usually only a portion of the stay is paid with a GC..." I have numerous other quotes from properties saying exactly the same thing. Until you try it for yourself though, it is hard to find out.
You Said: No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours. No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.My Response: I certainly can't lose money on this program... but how much lower can I go on this? I'd challenge you to sit in my shoes for a few months and come up with a better/cheaper/more effective solution. I'm certainly not the smartest guy on the planet, but we've got a pretty good team looking at the best ways to do this.
You Said: Post #2884: “I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.” ... Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.
My Response: We do take it into consideration, but we have to make some money on this, or we will not be able to promote it and pay salaries and rent for very long. I can't tell you how many times I have heard innkeepers complain about guests wanting a discount, or not wanting to pay peak season rates, or higher weekend rates, etc. to an inn. Why doesn't every inn just drop their weekend rates? Why do inns charge peak season rates when it is the same room and the costs are the same as the off-season? Why not just lower prices in general? Why do some inns offer gourmet coffee and others do not? Why do some have 300ct sheets and others do not? All good questions - and the answers are that every inn manages their operation to the best of their ability and sets costs accordingly so that they can stay in business. So do we - and netting 12% is pretty thin.
You Said: Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”... If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.
My Response: And we could tout it all the way into bankruptcy!
Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”
You Said: Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.
My Response: Again - this seems to me just like a guest complaining that your inn is over-priced. You can't run your inn for a lot less per room, and at this low of a net, with all the production costs, overhead and shipping, how could we even keep this product afloat?
Your Post: Post #2884: “In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.” ...Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]
My Reponse: This gets back to the whole "benefit of the doubt" thing I posted on months ago. You obviously didn't know how complex it is - but I'd think that the question would be a "why do you charge 15%... not "15% is a ripoff..."
Your Said: Post #2887: “We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.” Are you saying that use has declined?
My Reponse: Well, that is a tough question. With the economy, things are a little flat - but purchasers have shifted greatly to the plastic cards instead of online ever since we waived the service and shipping fees. It only makes sense. What you see is a LOT of online orders on December 24th and the morning of the 25th!!! (Including mine one year)
You Said: Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.” So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?
My Response: No - but what we saw was that a lot of companies started offering free shipping and so on. So if Giftcertificates.com, or Travelocity starts doing free shipping on gift cards - then we need to do it to stay competitive.
You Said: Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”
My Response: Because we want the people that buy online as well to have a nice product.
You Said: Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.
My Response: Well, we haven't changed our commission in four years, and we've added all of these extra costs and distributors over the past 12-18 months... so you are paying the same, and we are taking the extra costs out of our own pockets - so no, you are not eating them at all.
You Said: It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.
My Response: We employed less than 20 people for all of BedandBreakfast.com and RezOvation when we moved to Austin, TX, and today we are still below 40... so we do feel the negativity a little more than Microsoft. We are a very small business here. You might not know it based on the quality of products we are delivering - but that is a good thing as far as we are concerned!
You Said: Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.
My Response: Have you seen the cards? The font is about as small as is legible - we really have squeezed the max out of these things. We could drop the guest qualification areas (age, sex, how many times have you stayed in a B&B, etc. - but that is the type of info we want to get. The truth is that while most innkeepers like to see lots of free-form text comments, consumers really like the ratings... so we are meeting somewhere in between).
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John - Regarding your response (Post 2900) to post 2887? regarding those not joining the GC program regarding commission. I would like for you to clarify what you mean by neting 12% on this program.
You stated in 2900 "... every inn manages their operation to the best of their ability and sets costs accordingly so that they can stay in business. So do we - and netting 12% is pretty thin. "
Do you mean you are netting $1.80 for each $15 you recieve from a GC or 12% of the 15% ($14.55) which is how most of your posts are worded. -(i.e. Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%".... and how in your original post you used the % breakdown when a GC cost of 15% is divided into a 2 night stay instead of one. (i.e. 7.5% per night instead of the 15%) Sorry I am unable to qoute this example as I can not see your original post with this format.
Now I am sure which you mean as you stated 'thin' but with a long post, sometimes words are brushed by - which is why in my 1st go though I took you in a different context.
 
JBJ -
Not sure what to say about this one. We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers. We get a lot more customer data from a guest, we alert innkeepers when a review is posted, we let you immediately reply to each post, and we often require proof of stay to post a review. Innkeepers often told us that guest would leave a property and forget to go back online and post a review, so we came up with this card program where we pay for all of the costs so there is a better chance to get the reviews in the first place. Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable. They certainly are miles and miles better than nothing at all.
So to hear that you think this is "The ultimate of Lame" is pretty disappointing. We've stuck our neck and our pocketbooks way out on this to try and do something good here for innkeepers and the industry. Luckily thousands of innkeepers appreciate this and have seen great results, and we get phone calls and emails all of the time thanking us for providing some type of alternative to Trip Advisor..
John,

Let me start by saying that I am not anti-B&B.com. I have a four-room B&B, which to me seems to be an average size, but I suspect is considered “small” to you. I do want to explore what you've said and discuss the issue rationally...

In Post #2810 you said, "We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. "

This is the first I've heard of that. So far I've only heard of GC's being bought at Costco and being printed out online. How do you keep the directory up to date? If I join B&B.com tomorrow and elect to take GC's, how long until I'm listed in the directory?

Post #2810: "The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments"

What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small? If so, then maybe it's good that I'm not in the program. What is meant by professional? If you mean large, impersonal, and run by staff, then no thanks! There's an active and interesting thread about a girl who got all B&B GC's for Christmas and is at this moment traveling through New Engand staying at B&B's. I have to say that her experiences have been a sad reflection on the larger "professional" establishments. The thread can be found at: [COLOR= purple]https://www.innspiring.com/node/278[/COLOR], which includes a link to her very interesting blog.

Post #2810 "So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well."

So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead.

Post #2810: "you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc."

Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?

Post #2810: "Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations."

Now this I can believe!

Post #2810: "At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card."

Or maybe just an online certificate.

Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%"

I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).

Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value."

I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.

Post #2810: "then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so."

If they spend more than the value, which is not a given. The real cost is about 13%. Now briarrose had a good point... many of us give 10% discounts for all kinds of reasons, and from that perspective, 10% is not a big deal, so why should 13% irk so much? The answer, of course, is that we've already given our 10% discount for senior/ clergy/ military/ early/ late/ online/ off season/ pity's sake, and now there's this 13% on top of it because, after all, we can't limit the reservations in this program. Then it's 23%. Ouch!

Post #2810: “Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product.”

No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours.

Post #2810: “We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going.”

No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.

Post #2884: “I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.”

Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.

Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”

If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.

Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”

Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.

Post #2884: “In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.”

Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]

Post #2887: “We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.”

Are you saying that use has declined?

Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.”

So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?

Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”

Why?
Post #2887: “so we are eating all of those costs now as well.”

Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.

Post #2890: “So if you are not seeing a return on investment, and put no value in anything else we do besides Google placements, then I can understand why you feel you should not list on the site. But if you are seeing more dollars back on reservations than on your marketing spend with us, then I'm not sure that would be a good business decision.”

This is interesting to me because I have not listed with B&B.com. I am being easily found by people searching for a B&B in my area, so I’m not sure I can justify the cost of the listing. I’d have to get several reservations that wouldn’t have come otherwise, which would be difficult to determine. And I’m still bugged by the lowest level not having links. But just now I noticed your 90 day trial period and three free months… ah, but only at your first functional level, Silver.

Post #2890: “Ultimately the negativity towards us doesn't get anyone anywhere - we are not bad people here and we are not out to get anyone”

It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.

Post #2895: “We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers.”

The idea of replacing TA sounds fabulous to me. But since you only review inns that are members, it’s not a true replacment, and doesn’t benefit us itty bitty non-member inns.

Post #2895: “Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable.”

Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.

=)
Kk.
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Yellow Socks, I love you.
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LOL! Thanks!!!
Believe me, we're all innkeepers here, or at least all the moderators and regulars are. And I have to give John credit for bravery for venturing on this site, only to be complained to and about by others and picked apart by me. Poor guy... gets no sympathy from us poor, hard-working innkeepers when he explains how he doesn't make any profit. Oh wait... that's not what he said.... he only implied it!
Anyway, as business owners in a business notorious for slender profit margins and low ROI, he picked the wrong group to try to impress with his overhead woes...
=)
Kk.
 
So I guess you can only make posts that are favorable to bandb.com here? Mine is no longer posted, I only spoke from my experience and said nothing that was untrue..
Winewitch repost it. Noone deleted it. BandB.com has nothing to do with this forum. Post whatever you like. Feedback on all directories and programs is APPRECIATED.
.
Actually, all of you pretty much covered my grievances:
Poor customer service, having to call repeatedly to resolve issues that never should have been issues to begin with, not having calls returned, dealing with rude customer service reps and also having to go up the chain in order to get any results. We eventually got results, but the treatment and hassle we have had to deal with have made us seriously consider discontinuing the "service". We are tired of the awkward situations we are faced with when resolving booking problems at check-in that are not the guests fault or our fault. Guests shouldn't have to deal with it.
Being told by bandb.com to charge our guests for mistakes made by BandB.com or their affiliates, which we refuse to do!
Extremely poor communication -especially when 3rd party booking agents (expedia, hotels, etc.)are involved, leading to guests who are upset about charges they were never informed of, which had they booked directly with us-never would have been an issue. This turns the guests off of booking online.
Also the price guarantee they offer, guests have noticed they can get a better deal when they book with us directly, unfortunately they do not find out until after they've checked in and they are past the time line where Bandb.com will refund the difference. I have had guests feel cheated by this. I guess that is the plus side, we will get the return business and not bandb.com .
Months of waiting for information to be updated properly. Still waiting.
On top of it, only a handful of the guests have been a good fit for us, there have been a lot of problems, not that the guests were really at any fault, because they weren't informed of our policies when the vendor booked them or because the policies on the 3rd party sites weren't checked for accuracy or were not updated. We have NO WAY to access the information to change it because it's all done through the 3rd party web managers, who probably aren't human or are halfway around the world.
Have had those gift cards sitting on the shelf for months, haven't sold a one.
The commissions are ridiculously over priced.

Our guests are not at all interested in filling out the cards, I think they are a waste of paper and environmentally unconscious to boot! How many trees will be cut down so we can look forward to a mediocre review, 9 out of 10 ending up in the trash! If guests are going to leave a review they'd prefer to do it online and you just have to accept that maybe one in ten, if you're lucky, will do so, (Even if they raved about their experience to you in person!)
I really feel the web exposure is about the only thing going for bandb.com. I really had high hopes when I joined, but I now I just feel like we're being nickel and dimed.
I also agree with the other recent posting, I do not think vendors should be allowed to post here. After seeing the bandb.com posts, it made me wonder who's fronting this site and made me feel that my posts wouldn't be of value here.
And it's funny, I've seen more response here from bandb.com than we've ever gotten on the phone with them, which makes sense I guess, bandb.com is saving face on this public site, potential customers and all. Wish we got that kind of response when we called customer service, I might be writing a different post!
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winewitch said:
I also agree with the other recent posting, I do not think vendors should be allowed to post here. After seeing the bandb.com posts, it made me wonder who's fronting this site and made me feel that my posts wouldn't be of value here.
And it's funny, I've seen more response here from bandb.com than we've ever gotten on the phone with them, which makes sense I guess, bandb.com is saving face on this public site, potential customers and all. Wish we got that kind of response when we called customer service, I might be writing a different post!
Just to let you know who is 'fronting' the website...the person who built it is the poster known as Swirt. He owns a B&B in NY and is also a web programmer. Not a shill for any company/vendor. Most of us were on another forum on About.com and moved here. In an amazing 'build it and they will come' sort of fashion.
Hope this helps to allay your fears and you continue to post.
 
JBJ -
Not sure what to say about this one. We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers. We get a lot more customer data from a guest, we alert innkeepers when a review is posted, we let you immediately reply to each post, and we often require proof of stay to post a review. Innkeepers often told us that guest would leave a property and forget to go back online and post a review, so we came up with this card program where we pay for all of the costs so there is a better chance to get the reviews in the first place. Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable. They certainly are miles and miles better than nothing at all.
So to hear that you think this is "The ultimate of Lame" is pretty disappointing. We've stuck our neck and our pocketbooks way out on this to try and do something good here for innkeepers and the industry. Luckily thousands of innkeepers appreciate this and have seen great results, and we get phone calls and emails all of the time thanking us for providing some type of alternative to Trip Advisor..
John,

Let me start by saying that I am not anti-B&B.com. I have a four-room B&B, which to me seems to be an average size, but I suspect is considered “small” to you. I do want to explore what you've said and discuss the issue rationally...

In Post #2810 you said, "We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. "

This is the first I've heard of that. So far I've only heard of GC's being bought at Costco and being printed out online. How do you keep the directory up to date? If I join B&B.com tomorrow and elect to take GC's, how long until I'm listed in the directory?

Post #2810: "The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments"

What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small? If so, then maybe it's good that I'm not in the program. What is meant by professional? If you mean large, impersonal, and run by staff, then no thanks! There's an active and interesting thread about a girl who got all B&B GC's for Christmas and is at this moment traveling through New Engand staying at B&B's. I have to say that her experiences have been a sad reflection on the larger "professional" establishments. The thread can be found at: [COLOR= purple]https://www.innspiring.com/node/278[/COLOR], which includes a link to her very interesting blog.

Post #2810 "So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well."

So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead.

Post #2810: "you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc."

Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?

Post #2810: "Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations."

Now this I can believe!

Post #2810: "At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card."

Or maybe just an online certificate.

Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%"

I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).

Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value."

I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.

Post #2810: "then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so."

If they spend more than the value, which is not a given. The real cost is about 13%. Now briarrose had a good point... many of us give 10% discounts for all kinds of reasons, and from that perspective, 10% is not a big deal, so why should 13% irk so much? The answer, of course, is that we've already given our 10% discount for senior/ clergy/ military/ early/ late/ online/ off season/ pity's sake, and now there's this 13% on top of it because, after all, we can't limit the reservations in this program. Then it's 23%. Ouch!

Post #2810: “Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product.”

No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours.

Post #2810: “We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going.”

No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.

Post #2884: “I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.”

Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.

Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”

If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.

Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”

Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.

Post #2884: “In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.”

Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]

Post #2887: “We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.”

Are you saying that use has declined?

Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.”

So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?

Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”

Why?
Post #2887: “so we are eating all of those costs now as well.”

Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.

Post #2890: “So if you are not seeing a return on investment, and put no value in anything else we do besides Google placements, then I can understand why you feel you should not list on the site. But if you are seeing more dollars back on reservations than on your marketing spend with us, then I'm not sure that would be a good business decision.”

This is interesting to me because I have not listed with B&B.com. I am being easily found by people searching for a B&B in my area, so I’m not sure I can justify the cost of the listing. I’d have to get several reservations that wouldn’t have come otherwise, which would be difficult to determine. And I’m still bugged by the lowest level not having links. But just now I noticed your 90 day trial period and three free months… ah, but only at your first functional level, Silver.

Post #2890: “Ultimately the negativity towards us doesn't get anyone anywhere - we are not bad people here and we are not out to get anyone”

It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.

Post #2895: “We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers.”

The idea of replacing TA sounds fabulous to me. But since you only review inns that are members, it’s not a true replacment, and doesn’t benefit us itty bitty non-member inns.

Post #2895: “Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable.”

Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.

=)
Kk.
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Now that is a long post! Guess we know there is no limit - don't tell Eric G though - he'll use all the space he can get! Good questions though - I've been typing this for a long time now. For some reason I'm having trouble with the length/paragraph returns in the system, so apologize if this is a little choppy. I'm trying to answer them all:
On the directory - yes - we started that last fall. Been going out with everthing except the retail hanger cards (CVS, Office Depot, Safeway, etc. only allow hangers). We re-order/re-print the directory every quarter.
You Said: What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small?
My Response: Every survey we have seen shows something like only 3-4% of travelers consider staying at a B&B. They think "homestay" when they think of a B&B... extra bedroom with shared bath in a small house. That just isn't the case - the overwhelmingy majority of properties are 3-4 rooms or larger with private baths. Half of our properties are 7 rooms or under, half are larger, so at 4 rooms you pretty much fit right in.
You Said: So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead. ...you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc. Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?
My Response: Exactly - so we need to make something to cover our overhead as well. We have tried to outsource as well. There is really only one company that does it, and they force you into selling every guest a greeting card, no flexibility on shipping prices, and you have no real control. They handle some pretty big clients - but their entire service went down last December - a couple weeks before the holidays - and didn't come up until mid-late Jan!!!!! Believe me - I'd love to outsource it - it is a big operation and must be done in a very secure environment.
You Said: Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%".... I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).
My Response: Check the average price of online transactions - not swiped... any transaction done over the web is "non-qualified.." So you are looking at a rate of roughly 2.5% plus trans fees for Visa/MC, and a lot more for Amex. We process credit cards for hundreds of inns through RezOvation using PAI (Tom Weiskotten) and Intuit - and 3% including swiped is on the very low end for average landed cost.
You Said: Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value.".... I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.
There is a post right in this thread from Briar Rose that says "usually only a portion of the stay is paid with a GC..." I have numerous other quotes from properties saying exactly the same thing. Until you try it for yourself though, it is hard to find out.
You Said: No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours. No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.My Response: I certainly can't lose money on this program... but how much lower can I go on this? I'd challenge you to sit in my shoes for a few months and come up with a better/cheaper/more effective solution. I'm certainly not the smartest guy on the planet, but we've got a pretty good team looking at the best ways to do this.
You Said: Post #2884: “I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.” ... Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.
My Response: We do take it into consideration, but we have to make some money on this, or we will not be able to promote it and pay salaries and rent for very long. I can't tell you how many times I have heard innkeepers complain about guests wanting a discount, or not wanting to pay peak season rates, or higher weekend rates, etc. to an inn. Why doesn't every inn just drop their weekend rates? Why do inns charge peak season rates when it is the same room and the costs are the same as the off-season? Why not just lower prices in general? Why do some inns offer gourmet coffee and others do not? Why do some have 300ct sheets and others do not? All good questions - and the answers are that every inn manages their operation to the best of their ability and sets costs accordingly so that they can stay in business. So do we - and netting 12% is pretty thin.
You Said: Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”... If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.
My Response: And we could tout it all the way into bankruptcy!
Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”
You Said: Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.
My Response: Again - this seems to me just like a guest complaining that your inn is over-priced. You can't run your inn for a lot less per room, and at this low of a net, with all the production costs, overhead and shipping, how could we even keep this product afloat?
Your Post: Post #2884: “In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.” ...Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]
My Reponse: This gets back to the whole "benefit of the doubt" thing I posted on months ago. You obviously didn't know how complex it is - but I'd think that the question would be a "why do you charge 15%... not "15% is a ripoff..."
Your Said: Post #2887: “We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.” Are you saying that use has declined?
My Reponse: Well, that is a tough question. With the economy, things are a little flat - but purchasers have shifted greatly to the plastic cards instead of online ever since we waived the service and shipping fees. It only makes sense. What you see is a LOT of online orders on December 24th and the morning of the 25th!!! (Including mine one year)
You Said: Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.” So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?
My Response: No - but what we saw was that a lot of companies started offering free shipping and so on. So if Giftcertificates.com, or Travelocity starts doing free shipping on gift cards - then we need to do it to stay competitive.
You Said: Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”
My Response: Because we want the people that buy online as well to have a nice product.
You Said: Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.
My Response: Well, we haven't changed our commission in four years, and we've added all of these extra costs and distributors over the past 12-18 months... so you are paying the same, and we are taking the extra costs out of our own pockets - so no, you are not eating them at all.
You Said: It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.
My Response: We employed less than 20 people for all of BedandBreakfast.com and RezOvation when we moved to Austin, TX, and today we are still below 40... so we do feel the negativity a little more than Microsoft. We are a very small business here. You might not know it based on the quality of products we are delivering - but that is a good thing as far as we are concerned!
You Said: Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.
My Response: Have you seen the cards? The font is about as small as is legible - we really have squeezed the max out of these things. We could drop the guest qualification areas (age, sex, how many times have you stayed in a B&B, etc. - but that is the type of info we want to get. The truth is that while most innkeepers like to see lots of free-form text comments, consumers really like the ratings... so we are meeting somewhere in between).
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John - Regarding your response (Post 2900) to post 2887? regarding those not joining the GC program regarding commission. I would like for you to clarify what you mean by neting 12% on this program.
You stated in 2900 "... every inn manages their operation to the best of their ability and sets costs accordingly so that they can stay in business. So do we - and netting 12% is pretty thin. "
Do you mean you are netting $1.80 for each $15 you recieve from a GC or 12% of the 15% ($14.55) which is how most of your posts are worded. -(i.e. Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%".... and how in your original post you used the % breakdown when a GC cost of 15% is divided into a 2 night stay instead of one. (i.e. 7.5% per night instead of the 15%) Sorry I am unable to qoute this example as I can not see your original post with this format.
Now I am sure which you mean as you stated 'thin' but with a long post, sometimes words are brushed by - which is why in my 1st go though I took you in a different context.
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Good clarification. We charge a 15% commission to the property. So on a $100 GC, a property gets $85. We have to pay the credit card fee on each sale - so we get $15 less the 3% cc fee on $100, or $12. If a property had taken a $100 reservation directly, the property would pay that credit card fee obviously. So we "net" 12%, and this is the same effective commission a property pays.
What we hear from properties - including one in this post - is that on average, guests spend more than the face value of the GC. So if a guest shows up with a $100 GC, and their stay is $200, the property incurred a $12 effective commission on the first $100, and no commission on the extra $100. So the total effective commission on the reservation is $12/200, or 6%.
 
I would be upset with a review like that too. To me it just means average and we all know the bnb's on this forum are not the average. Here is a hug for you. ()
 
If we gave the $10 to book online that would have been $50. We have the verbage that says NO VALID WITH GIFT CERT's OR OTHER SPECIALS/DISCOUNTS..
John here from BedandBreakfast.com.
Ultimately we think this gift card program benefits the entire industry. There are not many ways for the industry to gain prominence out there - and having a program where a consumer can stay at 4,000 inns is very appealing from a consumer point of view. It is through programs like this where the entire industry is going to get elevated a notch - because in a large scale we can impact many many more customers. If inns do not want to accept them because of our commission, I understand, but I'd like you to put yourselves in our shoes for a minute and really consider the economics.
We incur a LOT of expenses to make this program happen. For starters, we pay the credit card fees on everything - which is almost 3% for these online transactions. Then we custom print every single card on 30mm plastic with custom images. We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments - so we have elevated the quality of our own card product to look as good as an iTunes card, or Hilton, or Starbucks - so from the first impression they start to see how good the B&B industry can be.
So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well. Then you have to add the equipment - the most basic card-printing machine is almost a five digit investment, and you can't just have one in case a machine breaks - which it does pretty regularly. Add to that all of the industrial color laser printers, air-feed folders, etc. and you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc. Then someone needs to run and maintain this product - there needs to be a team from putting the pieces together on every order, to shipping, dealing with bad credit cards, customers calling in because they lost a card or it didn't show up in the mail. There is a pretty big staff involved with making this happen, and that staff has real costs - salaries, healthcare, etc. Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations. And all of these costs do not even consider the retail channels. For the retail certificates - we literally have to custom design every order, each card carrier is different for each retailer, and we have to fill every single retail store with cards up front - whether they sell or not - and we have to pay for them all in advance, and pay a percentage of every card to the retaier. I do not even want to go into the math because the outlay on it is so large.
At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card. Often it is a guest they would not have received if they did not accept the card, and always the card must be accepted for any reservation (those are the rules of the program so that it isn't seen as an airline-mileage deal where you buy them then can never use them). An innkeeper pays no credit card fee on the dollars redeemed... so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%. Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value. So after credit card fees - the inn absorbs a true 12% on the face value, and if the consumer spends more (we have pretty good stats that show the average redeemed cert is for 50-60% of the stay), then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so.
Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product. We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going. Hopefully this gives you a better picture that this product isn't as simple as it looks.
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John, we have gone around with this before. If your company was not making a nice tidy profit with the GC program, you would not do it. We are business people who really do understand overhead and profit. Yes, we know you have overhead and we also know, every time we come up for renewal, that you are making a tidy profit.
In many ways, I do not believe the GC is doing us a favor. Here is one - daughter gives Mom & Dad a GC as a gift thinking "Oh how wonderful this is going to be" having seen a particular inn. Mom & Dad are NOT B & B people and never will be and when they go to use the GC do not go to the inn daughter had in mind that Mom would love. Mom & Dad are not really happy because they did not relax because they were staying "in someone's house" rather than the impersonal hotel/motel they are accustomed to. Innkeeper is not happy because innkeeper knows that no matter what has been done, these guests are not happy - and on top of everything else, 15% of the total will not hit their bank account and in my case, I will not only be paying the sales tax on the total charged (OK I got that from the guest), but I will be paying income taxes on the total revenue AND in my town B & O (business & occupation tax) on my GROSS revenues.
You have your "party" line and we have our opinions based on our individual businesses - I do not take them. I do my own GC because I get to keep all of it - the money. For them what likes them, great. From this innkeeper you get raspberries about the GC.
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I completely understand - which is why the program is optional. And I've never commented on the profit of an inn. I've heard both sides of the stories - inn's that seem to be minting money, and inns that are struggling to survive. But I've never worked in one, which is why I don't have much advice on how to operate one. Some day I'd love to be able to afford one, but I certainly can't right now. I've never had to sit behind the desk and figure out how to juggle reservations, cooking meals, ordering supplies, fixing a broken bathroom, dealing with an unhappy guest, or anything that makes innkeeping a 24/7 job. I do have an appreciation that it is hard to do though. I do know a bit about online marketing and getting guests, I do know a bit about using software effectively, I have seen first hand inns that have had tremendous success and I have an idea of some of the marketing things they utilize to pull it off, and unfortunately I know more about GC law then I wish I did...
Just the same though - no one in this forum has ever had to write a check out to a law firm that will guide you on nation-wide gift card law, or purchase multiple sets of industrial air-feed printers and folders, or chase down people using stolen credit cards to buy GC's and sell them on craigslist, or negotiate with a major online travel agency to try and get B&B's shown on their site, or buy new servers to maintain connections to Webervations or Expedia, or go through Microsoft Certification on a PMS product, or many of the other things we have to deal with here. I'd sure find it interesting to have you sit in my desk for a few months and see what you would do differently and still keep the business afloat in the long run.
 
If we gave the $10 to book online that would have been $50. We have the verbage that says NO VALID WITH GIFT CERT's OR OTHER SPECIALS/DISCOUNTS..
John here from BedandBreakfast.com.
Ultimately we think this gift card program benefits the entire industry. There are not many ways for the industry to gain prominence out there - and having a program where a consumer can stay at 4,000 inns is very appealing from a consumer point of view. It is through programs like this where the entire industry is going to get elevated a notch - because in a large scale we can impact many many more customers. If inns do not want to accept them because of our commission, I understand, but I'd like you to put yourselves in our shoes for a minute and really consider the economics.
We incur a LOT of expenses to make this program happen. For starters, we pay the credit card fees on everything - which is almost 3% for these online transactions. Then we custom print every single card on 30mm plastic with custom images. We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments - so we have elevated the quality of our own card product to look as good as an iTunes card, or Hilton, or Starbucks - so from the first impression they start to see how good the B&B industry can be.
So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well. Then you have to add the equipment - the most basic card-printing machine is almost a five digit investment, and you can't just have one in case a machine breaks - which it does pretty regularly. Add to that all of the industrial color laser printers, air-feed folders, etc. and you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc. Then someone needs to run and maintain this product - there needs to be a team from putting the pieces together on every order, to shipping, dealing with bad credit cards, customers calling in because they lost a card or it didn't show up in the mail. There is a pretty big staff involved with making this happen, and that staff has real costs - salaries, healthcare, etc. Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations. And all of these costs do not even consider the retail channels. For the retail certificates - we literally have to custom design every order, each card carrier is different for each retailer, and we have to fill every single retail store with cards up front - whether they sell or not - and we have to pay for them all in advance, and pay a percentage of every card to the retaier. I do not even want to go into the math because the outlay on it is so large.
At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card. Often it is a guest they would not have received if they did not accept the card, and always the card must be accepted for any reservation (those are the rules of the program so that it isn't seen as an airline-mileage deal where you buy them then can never use them). An innkeeper pays no credit card fee on the dollars redeemed... so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%. Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value. So after credit card fees - the inn absorbs a true 12% on the face value, and if the consumer spends more (we have pretty good stats that show the average redeemed cert is for 50-60% of the stay), then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so.
Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product. We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going. Hopefully this gives you a better picture that this product isn't as simple as it looks.
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John, we have gone around with this before. If your company was not making a nice tidy profit with the GC program, you would not do it. We are business people who really do understand overhead and profit. Yes, we know you have overhead and we also know, every time we come up for renewal, that you are making a tidy profit.
In many ways, I do not believe the GC is doing us a favor. Here is one - daughter gives Mom & Dad a GC as a gift thinking "Oh how wonderful this is going to be" having seen a particular inn. Mom & Dad are NOT B & B people and never will be and when they go to use the GC do not go to the inn daughter had in mind that Mom would love. Mom & Dad are not really happy because they did not relax because they were staying "in someone's house" rather than the impersonal hotel/motel they are accustomed to. Innkeeper is not happy because innkeeper knows that no matter what has been done, these guests are not happy - and on top of everything else, 15% of the total will not hit their bank account and in my case, I will not only be paying the sales tax on the total charged (OK I got that from the guest), but I will be paying income taxes on the total revenue AND in my town B & O (business & occupation tax) on my GROSS revenues.
You have your "party" line and we have our opinions based on our individual businesses - I do not take them. I do my own GC because I get to keep all of it - the money. For them what likes them, great. From this innkeeper you get raspberries about the GC.
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I completely understand - which is why the program is optional. And I've never commented on the profit of an inn. I've heard both sides of the stories - inn's that seem to be minting money, and inns that are struggling to survive. But I've never worked in one, which is why I don't have much advice on how to operate one. Some day I'd love to be able to afford one, but I certainly can't right now. I've never had to sit behind the desk and figure out how to juggle reservations, cooking meals, ordering supplies, fixing a broken bathroom, dealing with an unhappy guest, or anything that makes innkeeping a 24/7 job. I do have an appreciation that it is hard to do though. I do know a bit about online marketing and getting guests, I do know a bit about using software effectively, I have seen first hand inns that have had tremendous success and I have an idea of some of the marketing things they utilize to pull it off, and unfortunately I know more about GC law then I wish I did...
Just the same though - no one in this forum has ever had to write a check out to a law firm that will guide you on nation-wide gift card law, or purchase multiple sets of industrial air-feed printers and folders, or chase down people using stolen credit cards to buy GC's and sell them on craigslist, or negotiate with a major online travel agency to try and get B&B's shown on their site, or buy new servers to maintain connections to Webervations or Expedia, or go through Microsoft Certification on a PMS product, or many of the other things we have to deal with here. I'd sure find it interesting to have you sit in my desk for a few months and see what you would do differently and still keep the business afloat in the long run.
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Yep the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence....that is until you jump it and find it is full of weeds.
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Copperhead you are living up to your user id.
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Well chosen.
All valid points people, all valid points. Nothing I have seen on this thread or the other is off base at all. Your feedback is valuable to everyone here.
It is refreshing to hear some of my own viewpoints being posted here tho. That is why this is a good thing, this forum.
FYI - everyone new needs to know It is not run by any corp or big wig, it is actually moderated by by many "hardworking, sleep lacking, always ready with a cup of tea and a smile" innkeepers.
Please remember it is like 3 weeks old. So we will have growing pains and things shall change accordingly. Swirt has a fix-it list that we all keep adding to. We thank him for his endeavoring.
 
Copperhead you are living up to your user id.
wink_smile.gif
Well chosen.
All valid points people, all valid points. Nothing I have seen on this thread or the other is off base at all. Your feedback is valuable to everyone here.
It is refreshing to hear some of my own viewpoints being posted here tho. That is why this is a good thing, this forum.
FYI - everyone new needs to know It is not run by any corp or big wig, it is actually moderated by by many "hardworking, sleep lacking, always ready with a cup of tea and a smile" innkeepers.
Please remember it is like 3 weeks old. So we will have growing pains and things shall change accordingly. Swirt has a fix-it list that we all keep adding to. We thank him for his endeavoring..
JunieBJones (JBJ) said:
Please remember it is like 3 weeks old. So we will have growing pains and things shall change accordingly. Swirt has a fix-it list that we all keep adding to. We thank him for his endeavoring.
I just looked at 'my account'. We've been noodling around here for 5 weeks. OK, not everyone, but a bunch of us. Amazing!
 
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