Wow! Membership Renewal Fee!

[Eric Goldreyer]

Dear Innkeepers,
So I took a few days myself to "take a deep breath". Much better!
Let me try and elaborate on some thoughts. I realize we are not working for Kathleen and she is upset and we are losing her business. I think it is unfortunate, and will stand by my comment that I feel an average rate increase of 7% per year over the last 9-10 years is totatlly fair - especially while during that same time period that we doubled our rates, our traffic grew by about 10X. I really do not understand where that is not fair or make sus bad guys. I also do not understand why we are called "slimy" for launching a program that save sinnkeepers $60/year because when it was announced we didn't also say "BTW, our rates increased Jan 1". Our rate increase typically take effect on jan 1. That i snot always. Sometimes rates have not inncreased, sometimes they have been delayed. But to think that some of you guys are upset with us because you feel we should have announced it along with our annual rates, I just feel is unfair. (I do nto expect sympathy here - as some of you will claim - I am tryin got share "my" viewpoint).
I am not going to reply to each and every post in this thread because it is all over the place. But someone in the thread remarked that this is a place for folks to vent". That sounds reasonable (even though there is a seperate area in the forum for "venting". But nionetheless, why is it then not fair for me to vent my frustrations? If we want an open two-way communication channel, (which I do) there seems to be a bit of a double-standard. I have to be able to explain my thoughts/positions without folks condenscendingly sayimg I am just pushing my products. I am completely open to an open dialog with you guys, but if you want to keep it professional, it is a two-way street. We don't need the attacking comments, the "You Go Girl" comments like it is a competition and you are cheering for a victor. I would love nothing more to sit down as a group with all of you and have an open communication about our business.
But the reason John and I are on this board is because we do listen. We are here and actively participating. My perception is that some of you only feel we are "listening" if we actaully implement every change you suggest. That is not practical. We listen. Then we make business decision based on what we feel is the best solution for everyone involved (you guys, potential guests, and us).
Kathleen - I really don't know why you did not see a nice return for your investment. I am truly sorry you did not and I certainly don't fault you for lookinng for other places that may give it to you. I do know by looking at our stats for your listing, that we sent nearly 3,000 folks to your home page from BedandBreakfast.com in the last year. That is what, about twelve cents per user. I don't see how that seems unfair in our pricing. Using some easy conversion stats of 1%, you should have sold nearly 30 reservations because of us. Even if your average res is only 1 night (industry average is 2.3) and your ADR is only $100 (industry average is about $170) - you should have earned about $3,000 from your $350 invesment...? Why didn't you...? I am not sure. It really could be a lot of things. I do know that we have a full timme team fo Membership Consultants that are a toll-free call away that are happy to help you and will run through your listing and member checklist and offer any assistance we can to see how we could possibly increase your conversion. But you have to call them. I wish we could proactively call every member but it is unfortunately just not practical with 7,000 member properties. Like any media purchase (Super Bowl ad, magazine, billboard or newspaper ad) you are buying the visibility and it seems like we delivered on that front. Nonetheless, for whatever reason it did not work and therefore you shoul;d try and find somethinng that may. I am curious if you track your reservations by channel through your booking engine or stat software. Often times, if not most times, it is very hard for an innkeeper to find out where their reservations came form by asking the guest. As was pointed out in this thread, consumers don't remember and they will say your own website when they actually started on a directory and linked through to your hoe page so although they say your home page, they actually found you because of the directory. Not always the case, but the best way to truly track your reservations is to set up your software correctly to really "track" them. best of luck to you and let us know if there is anythignn we can do to help.
A few of you guys talk about the price alot - and how we are out to get you But as I mentioned above (and we have already spent a lot of time on tis in previous threads), our annual rate increases over the last 9-10 years has averaged 7% while our traffic has increased by an order of magnitude. We also now include Inns.com so it is no longer even the same. And this year, we aunched the ratings credit which basically keeps the rates for Bronze and Silver members the same (if not a little drop) year over year from 2008 to 2009. The review credit program applies to everyone immediately - not only to folks on the 2009 pricing. So folks that renewed/joined in December (1 month ago) are also now saving $5 every month off their membership when they get a review. It was not a new program tied to the rate increase - again, why we didn't mention our standard annual rate adjustment when announcing it. No the rates didn't go up from Novemeber as someone exclaimed. Our new 2009 rates went into effect. if you joined/paid in November, that will be your rate until next November. We lock in your rates, we do not raise them mid-membership. "That" wouldn't be fair.
For any of you that use our RezOvation products and services, you will see that in the last 4 years we have dropped the price of our PMS (from $595 to $195) all while completely reinvesting in it and rewritinng it from the ground up with the weekly feedback/input from a panel of 20 innkeepers, on the latest and greatest programming language, using a standard and robust SQL databse (not some propriatery one that may cause you problems down the road), becomeing the only Micorsoft certified provider inthe space, and many other thinigs. We also dropped the price of the booking engine from 5% per res to a low monthly fee with no commissions that is about 80% less than it was 4-5 years ago. In general, technology costs have decreased over time, and we drop our prices accordingly. On the media side of the business (BBCOM), the cost to get traffic has done nothing but increase. Fortunately, our exposure has also considearbly increased and therefore the value we provide has increased. And therefore we have raised those prices.
Regarding different rates for different size properties, we have considered it many times. We try to remain open to new ideas and I think we actuaslly implement many of them with our team. My thoughts on this are:
- That makes sense in a technology product (see paragrpah above) where prices drop and where the cost to support/maintain a technology scales with the size of the property (ie. it clearly takes us more of everything to support a 20 room property using our RezOvation Bookinng Engine, than it takes to support and maintain a 3 room property. Therefore our prices reflect that.
- The majority of traffic/reservations goes to the folks at the top of a search result (be it Google, BBCOM, or your chamber). It seems if would not be fair for a 12 room B&B paying $500/year to be below4 smaller B&Bs with 1-4 rooms because the smaller B&Bs were able to buy the same spot for $200. I really do not see that as fair. I am open to discuss this and I am trying to understand your point so please keep the dialouge going. But we are not Select Registry (as some of you mentioned) - where we have to inspect your property and therefore our costs go up or down with the size of your property. Nor are we a state association here to help you navigate vendors, state and local laws, etc. We are a marketing company (sorry I am stating the obvious).
- I don't see see NBC (or whoever it is) offering me a less expensive rate for a 30 second Super Bowl ad because I am a smaller business than Budweiser. No, the rate is the rate based upon the value they (NBC) provides. Same apllies to full page ads in Conde Nast, Travel and Liesure, etc. The rate is the same and it is not based on a customer's ability to afford it, but the value delivered. So I am having a hard time getting my hands around why we should do it differently, Again, I am not trying to in any way draw a liine in the sand (as some of you seem to think I am/have with your posts). I just can't figure it out. If you have the answer or some thoughts, please share them. I am always open to considering better ways.
Frankly, we realize is is not the ideal way to price our services (flat fee for membership by level). But that is how they all do it. We tried doing a Pay Per Click model for innkeepers with Inns.com. It wa svery dair, whoever paid the highest got the best placement, and we only charged for the traffic we delivered. We also have a program for online reservations whereby you only pay the fee when we sell a room for you (although you have to be at least a Bronze member to participate in that additional channel). It seems the fairest way to price our services would be on a lead generation basis (ie. a Pay Per Click). That way we are not penalized if the product i sbad and there are no reservations made. If we deliver a hot lead, we get paid. And it is then the innkeepers job to work with their webmaster to ensure they convert that traffic. That does not compensate us for the reservations that are made directly from our wesbite when consumers pick up the phone (which still clearly happens because our listings are comprehensive enough that folks can see most of everything they need to see on our site and then just call to make a reservation. But I think that would probably be the cleanest/fairest. I don't see us going there because aside from the complexity of changing our entire model (and having a model different from everyone else in the industry), I don't think innkeepers would actaully like it. I very well could be wrong. I will promise you this though - If we changed it, some innkeepers would absolutely be completely and toatlly upset with us and think we were the worst folks on earth. It is unfortuante, but with 7,000 customers, it seems that almost whatever you do will upset some of them Anyway, back to pricing for BBCOM membership by room count, wouldn't that be like you guys pricing your room rates based on people's ability to pay? I mean it seems like it would be like saying your Honeymoon Suite is $495 if you make over $100,000/year, but only $95 if you make under $30,000. I don't think any innkeepers do that (at least none I am aware of).. Maybe you allow them to pay it out over a few payments, but i doubt many innkeepers even do that. We did was spend invest several months of development time to create a system where innkeepers could pay monthly instead of annually. We feel this helps considerably with the innkeeper's cash flow and in many cases enables the membership to pay for itself in a new way way - meaning an innkeeper joins and gets three months free and they get reservations in those first 3 months that pay for their ongoing membership and this pattern continues so innkeepers are able to pay us with money we heloed them make. IThen that takes us back to "really?", $30/mo ($1 a day) seems outrageous to some of you? Here in this thread there has been discussion as to how we price compasred to BBOnline. We realize we are more expensive (and we think in most cases it is justified). But isn't the question whether or not you are getting a positive ROI from us (as would/should ebt eh question for any ad medium - minus the oppoprtunity cost). I realize I may be missing the forest through the tress so honestly please provide "constructive" feedback/input.
Some of you continue to go back and beat us up for raisng the GC rates without enough heads up. We already stated on this board that that was our bad and we pushed the rate increase out. We made a mistake. We are juggling a lot of stuff here. We try, but we will have mis-steps like anyone. I "think" we admit when we make a mistake, but there is no need to keep beating us up on it...? We realize we are not perfect and we want to hear what you guys have to say.
Yes, this is my baby. I apologize (truly) if my defensive reply offended anyone. Just so you know how I feel (in this open communication), I feel like we explain our side of the story with our thoughts, facts,logic and details - it is ofetntimes mocked on this forum and many times completely disregarded (like "Who wants to be bothered with the facts"). I think I even recall someone on this thread saying "enough of the facts" more or less. Maybe I got it wrong. This is a very long thread and covers a multitude of topics. But I feel just as you feel that you can tell me your thoughts, I can share with you what the perception is from our end. It is "We want it cheap. We don't care what you do and all you have done or that you have dropped prices big time at RezOvation. We want cheaper rates and because you charge more than anyone else, you guys are bad."
That's what we hear...
I look forward to an open/fair/honest dialouge.
Sincerely,
Eric.

Eric,
I am not, and have not disputed your right to charge whatever. I actually was not asking for a "sliding" scale. I believe what we were REALLY asking for is a level that is going to give what anyone who is savvy considers a MUST - a link to homepage - that is affordable for the small inns. What you give for Bronze is almost equal to throwing the money down a rathole.
We all know that today's traveler wants instant gratification and wants to see what he is looking to buy and that requires a link to our web site. I do not need 10 photos. I do not need Hot Deals that only go to 1400 people who are not going to use it. I am not interested in GCs other than my own.
What do I want and need for my 3 rooms? I need exposure to the traveling public - and if there is someone who has paid for a higher level I have no problem with them being listed first, they paid for the priviledge, I need my contact info including a link to my web page (that is really what people are going to judge me on, not my bandb page), and yes, I do need at least 1 photo.
You have a "sliding scale" now but it is your levels, not room count. You say it costs more to take care of a 20 room inn than a 3 room - excuse me, but it is usually the reverse, the more you make of something the less it costs. Now do not use this statement to turn around on me. I am asking for a minimum of services at a rate I can afford. You do not (or cannot) provide that. Rather than trying to find a reason that is MY fault for your site not producing revenue, understand that your site is a "scatter gun" and I do not care if you count 3000 hits to my site (my tracker does not show that many) - are you meanung my bandb page? - if they are not coming to my web page or are not booking, it means nothing. An ad in the newspaper may have a lot of looks but if no one picks up the phone, it is just birdcage material (which it is in my opinion).
I do not know what you mean by a "just a 7% increase" when my rate went up over $100 in 2009 than what it was in 2008. I do believe that would be a mite more than 7%.
I wish you well. I just have chosen to say that although I have paid to run with the "big dogs" in the past - the cost of doing it has gone beyond my means and I will see what those little targeted directories can do for me. I will see this year, since my membership runs out before the "season" starts, just how dropping this listing does affect my occupancy. You may have the last laugh after all. But I am going to find out.
.

Eric,
I am not, and have not disputed your right to charge whatever. I actually was not asking for a "sliding" scale. I believe what we were REALLY asking for is a level that is going to give what anyone who is savvy considers a MUST - a link to homepage - that is affordable for the small inns. What you give for Bronze is almost equal to throwing the money down a rathole.
Kathleen -
I tried to explain it fairly and evenly and I laid out all my thoughts and asked for feedback in what I thought was a fair and unoffensive post, but you still seem to be upset. Is there more to the story that I am not aware of?
You are saying you don't want levels based on rooms, but"a level with a link that is affordable for small inns". So keep the levels, but add a link to the Bronze...? I think that is more problematic than changing to pricing based on room counts - which I just spent several hours explaining in detail what my current concerns are with it. We are listening. We have looked at and discussed it several times in the last 6-8 years. We just have been unable to figure out a workable solution that does not devalue our other membership levels across the board. Maybe an analogy would be if an innkeeper owned a really nice property that people loved to stay at regardless of what room they stayed in. And let's assume the rooms were $200-$450/night. By adding a room that sold for $100, this innkeeper may just see the folks that used to stay in the other rooms stay in a less expensive room - they still get the value of staying at the property. Now the innkeeper has lost a lot of revenue because the same guests (and maybe a few new ones came along as well) are all staying in the cheaper rooms, when most of them were absoluteloy fine with the value they received from the more expensive rooms. Maybe not aperfect analogy, but certainly a concern of ours. What can we do to meet smaller property's needs without cannnibalizing our existing sales. Can't forget we are also running a business...
You said, "What you give for Bronze is almost equal to throwing the money down a rathole". Again, that is your opinion. This is where we have a disconnect and I feel you guys do not hear us. I already explained how we have to meet the needs of thousands of innnkeepers, not several, and that hundreds of innkeepers are very happy with the Bronze level and get a good return from it. If they didn't, the market would not support a bronze level and we therefore would not offer it. After my first post in this thread I actually logged back on and added a short postscript to my post because literally as I logged off of Innspiring, I got an email from a very happy Bronze member - so I thought this would help some of you realize that everyone's needs do not match yours, and that as I stated, bronze works very well for some innkeepers. Then someone goes on and slams me and says basically "who cares if it worked for that innkeeper"...??
Maybe it is throwing money down a rathole for you, but to say it is worthless is clearly innacurate or we wouldn't have 600 innkeepers paying us for it.
We all know that today's traveler wants instant gratification and wants to see what he is looking to buy and that requires a link to our web site. I do not need 10 photos. I do not need Hot Deals that only go to 1400 people who are not going to use it. I am not interested in GCs other than my own.
This comment reminds me of a seperate thread on this same forum where an innkeeper was upset someone had asked for a discount because they did not need the breakfast because they were "leaving early". This innkeeper then said the guest can have home-made breakfast, free parking, wine and cheese, and her husband would carry the guest's bags to their room, etc. But the rate is the rate and the innkeeper seemed offended that the potential guest asked for a discount. I am not offended, but how are we different? The things you mentioned are things we have built-in to "our" product and support and they are a part of our rate. We do not offer a "link only" page anymore than any B&Bs I know offer a "bed-only" rate.
What do I want and need for my 3 rooms? I need exposure to the traveling public - and if there is someone who has paid for a higher level I have no problem with them being listed first, they paid for the priviledge, I need my contact info including a link to my web page (that is really what people are going to judge me on, not my bandb page), and yes, I do need at least 1 photo.
I do not agree in the blanket statement that people do not judge you on your BBCOM Page. What do you think affects the click through rate from BBCOM to innkeeper's own sites? It absolutely has an effect as people judge properties every day and minute based on their BBCOM listings. But I hear you. You are saying you would like a simple one-photo no-frills page with a link. So the question is how do you suggest we provide that for you without having all Silver members drop to the Bronze membership level? We understand the value is in the link. That is why that is what we charge more money for listings with the link.
You have a "sliding scale" now but it is your levels, not room count. You say it costs more to take care of a 20 room inn than a 3 room - excuse me, but it is usually the reverse, the more you make of something the less it costs.
Respectfully, I think I have a pretty good handle on what is involved to support innkeepers in this industry, having over 10,000 innkeeper clients between BBCOM/RezO/Weber. In my post I stated that we priced that way in our technology business (RezOvation), not at BBCOM. The cost to support larger properties on technology goes up almost in direct proportion with their size. We basically give RezO GT (The PMS) away for free (down from $595 years ago) so it is not possible for us to make that up on volume, even though our costs to produce an actual disk are certainly lower.
Now do not use this statement to turn around on me. I am asking for a minimum of services at a rate I can afford. You do not (or cannot) provide that. Rather than trying to find a reason that is MY fault for your site not producing revenue, understand that your site is a "scatter gun" and I do not care if you count 3000 hits to my site (my tracker does not show that many) - are you meanung my bandb page? - if they are not coming to my web page or are not booking, it means nothing. An ad in the newspaper may have a lot of looks but if no one picks up the phone, it is just birdcage material (which it is in my opinion).
Sorry. The actual number was 2,847 that we sent from BBCOM to your home page/web page in 2008. So yes, they were coming to your "web page". These are very qualified leads of folks looking for a B&B where you are located. Not that scattered... I am not saying it is your fault. I am simply stating that we have sent you a LOT of traffic and for some reason it is apparently according to you, not converting. That is WAY outside the norms we see so "something" is up. I think your newspaper analogy would be more accurate if you said 2,850 people did pick up the phone and call you, but none of them booked.
I do not know what you mean by a "just a 7% increase" when my rate went up over $100 in 2009 than what it was in 2008. I do believe that would be a mite more than 7%.
Kathleen - This is what I mean when I say it is a two-way street and sometiimes I feel that some innkeepers don't listen. I stated that in the last 9-10 years, on an annualized average increase, we have been at 7%. You are referring to one single membership level for one single year out of the nine - while leaving out years there was zero increase, low increase, etc.... I will caveat that and say that incoudes assigning a $50 value to Inns.com. So if you back that out, more like 8% I guess...
I wish you well. I just have chosen to say that although I have paid to run with the "big dogs" in the past - the cost of doing it has gone beyond my means and I will see what those little targeted directories can do for me. I will see this year, since my membership runs out before the "season" starts, just how dropping this listing does affect my occupancy. You may have the last laugh after all. But I am going to find out.
Your cost in 2009 (as already stated in an email to you for our support team) will actually most likely end up being a few dollars less than you paid us in 2008 (another reason I do not follow the thread and your frustration).
Anyway, Best of luck to you.
Eric

 

[Eric Goldreyer]

- I don't see see NBC (or whoever it is) offering me a less expensive rate for a 30 second Super Bowl ad because I am a smaller business than Budweiser.

I think this is an inaccurate analogy. What they are selling is air time which is a limited commodity. You aren't selling air time, you are selling your collection of users which is also a limited commodity, but in a different way.
To make this line of thought a little easier, lets say that you have a million users on your site in a given day. And for the most part, they are all looking for a place to stay. Lets say 100 of them are looking to stay in Poughkeepsie NY.
So they land on your page and they see that there are two B&B's ... one has 36 rooms and one has 4 rooms. Which one is going to draw down more of your users? (assuming equivalent accommodations) The little 4 room B&B can only accommodate so many before it is full, while the larger 36 room place can take a lot more. The larger place is going to draw off more of your users, because they have more openings. So they get more users (the thing you are actually selling). Just by the numbers alone, the bigger inn gets a much bigger return on their listing with you. The "little" inn with only 4 rooms may get just as many click throughs according to your trackers, but they will be full and not have openings more often, so those users that originally clicked on their link, will be back to you continuing to browse your collection.
So if you are truly after the most fair method, it would be to charge not by click through, but by exit (which you could track) or by conversion (which you can't track for everyone). But either way, by this analogy, charging everyone for the same listing, is not the most fair. The bigger properties will draw down more of your users, the thing you are actually selling, than the small property will.
Keep in mind, I have always said companies are free to charge what they want and customers are free to pick and choose as they please. You used in much of your defense, referring to lowering your price for RezoVation and other things you have done to improve other products and I think that speaks to the company as a whole. But you have to realize that many innkeepers aren't aware of what you did with the price for Rezovation. They are up and running and already have a reservation system and likely are too busy to have looked to see other options after the fact. They did their research early on and never looked back. Each of your endeavors/products has to sort of stand in its own spotlight. So if the price on a bandb.com listing goes up, they are going to respond to that. People are still afraid about what's going to happen to Webervations now that you own it. They just want to be heard. They don't want to be insulted for complaining about a price increase anymore than you want to feel beat up for offering a product designed to help them..

Swirt -
Thanks! I have to run or my wife and kids are going ot kill me. I'll get back on later tonight or tomorrow.
Eric

 

[gillumhouse]

Dear Innkeepers,
So I took a few days myself to "take a deep breath". Much better!
Let me try and elaborate on some thoughts. I realize we are not working for Kathleen and she is upset and we are losing her business. I think it is unfortunate, and will stand by my comment that I feel an average rate increase of 7% per year over the last 9-10 years is totatlly fair - especially while during that same time period that we doubled our rates, our traffic grew by about 10X. I really do not understand where that is not fair or make sus bad guys. I also do not understand why we are called "slimy" for launching a program that save sinnkeepers $60/year because when it was announced we didn't also say "BTW, our rates increased Jan 1". Our rate increase typically take effect on jan 1. That i snot always. Sometimes rates have not inncreased, sometimes they have been delayed. But to think that some of you guys are upset with us because you feel we should have announced it along with our annual rates, I just feel is unfair. (I do nto expect sympathy here - as some of you will claim - I am tryin got share "my" viewpoint).
I am not going to reply to each and every post in this thread because it is all over the place. But someone in the thread remarked that this is a place for folks to vent". That sounds reasonable (even though there is a seperate area in the forum for "venting". But nionetheless, why is it then not fair for me to vent my frustrations? If we want an open two-way communication channel, (which I do) there seems to be a bit of a double-standard. I have to be able to explain my thoughts/positions without folks condenscendingly sayimg I am just pushing my products. I am completely open to an open dialog with you guys, but if you want to keep it professional, it is a two-way street. We don't need the attacking comments, the "You Go Girl" comments like it is a competition and you are cheering for a victor. I would love nothing more to sit down as a group with all of you and have an open communication about our business.
But the reason John and I are on this board is because we do listen. We are here and actively participating. My perception is that some of you only feel we are "listening" if we actaully implement every change you suggest. That is not practical. We listen. Then we make business decision based on what we feel is the best solution for everyone involved (you guys, potential guests, and us).
Kathleen - I really don't know why you did not see a nice return for your investment. I am truly sorry you did not and I certainly don't fault you for lookinng for other places that may give it to you. I do know by looking at our stats for your listing, that we sent nearly 3,000 folks to your home page from BedandBreakfast.com in the last year. That is what, about twelve cents per user. I don't see how that seems unfair in our pricing. Using some easy conversion stats of 1%, you should have sold nearly 30 reservations because of us. Even if your average res is only 1 night (industry average is 2.3) and your ADR is only $100 (industry average is about $170) - you should have earned about $3,000 from your $350 invesment...? Why didn't you...? I am not sure. It really could be a lot of things. I do know that we have a full timme team fo Membership Consultants that are a toll-free call away that are happy to help you and will run through your listing and member checklist and offer any assistance we can to see how we could possibly increase your conversion. But you have to call them. I wish we could proactively call every member but it is unfortunately just not practical with 7,000 member properties. Like any media purchase (Super Bowl ad, magazine, billboard or newspaper ad) you are buying the visibility and it seems like we delivered on that front. Nonetheless, for whatever reason it did not work and therefore you shoul;d try and find somethinng that may. I am curious if you track your reservations by channel through your booking engine or stat software. Often times, if not most times, it is very hard for an innkeeper to find out where their reservations came form by asking the guest. As was pointed out in this thread, consumers don't remember and they will say your own website when they actually started on a directory and linked through to your hoe page so although they say your home page, they actually found you because of the directory. Not always the case, but the best way to truly track your reservations is to set up your software correctly to really "track" them. best of luck to you and let us know if there is anythignn we can do to help.
A few of you guys talk about the price alot - and how we are out to get you But as I mentioned above (and we have already spent a lot of time on tis in previous threads), our annual rate increases over the last 9-10 years has averaged 7% while our traffic has increased by an order of magnitude. We also now include Inns.com so it is no longer even the same. And this year, we aunched the ratings credit which basically keeps the rates for Bronze and Silver members the same (if not a little drop) year over year from 2008 to 2009. The review credit program applies to everyone immediately - not only to folks on the 2009 pricing. So folks that renewed/joined in December (1 month ago) are also now saving $5 every month off their membership when they get a review. It was not a new program tied to the rate increase - again, why we didn't mention our standard annual rate adjustment when announcing it. No the rates didn't go up from Novemeber as someone exclaimed. Our new 2009 rates went into effect. if you joined/paid in November, that will be your rate until next November. We lock in your rates, we do not raise them mid-membership. "That" wouldn't be fair.
For any of you that use our RezOvation products and services, you will see that in the last 4 years we have dropped the price of our PMS (from $595 to $195) all while completely reinvesting in it and rewritinng it from the ground up with the weekly feedback/input from a panel of 20 innkeepers, on the latest and greatest programming language, using a standard and robust SQL databse (not some propriatery one that may cause you problems down the road), becomeing the only Micorsoft certified provider inthe space, and many other thinigs. We also dropped the price of the booking engine from 5% per res to a low monthly fee with no commissions that is about 80% less than it was 4-5 years ago. In general, technology costs have decreased over time, and we drop our prices accordingly. On the media side of the business (BBCOM), the cost to get traffic has done nothing but increase. Fortunately, our exposure has also considearbly increased and therefore the value we provide has increased. And therefore we have raised those prices.
Regarding different rates for different size properties, we have considered it many times. We try to remain open to new ideas and I think we actuaslly implement many of them with our team. My thoughts on this are:
- That makes sense in a technology product (see paragrpah above) where prices drop and where the cost to support/maintain a technology scales with the size of the property (ie. it clearly takes us more of everything to support a 20 room property using our RezOvation Bookinng Engine, than it takes to support and maintain a 3 room property. Therefore our prices reflect that.
- The majority of traffic/reservations goes to the folks at the top of a search result (be it Google, BBCOM, or your chamber). It seems if would not be fair for a 12 room B&B paying $500/year to be below4 smaller B&Bs with 1-4 rooms because the smaller B&Bs were able to buy the same spot for $200. I really do not see that as fair. I am open to discuss this and I am trying to understand your point so please keep the dialouge going. But we are not Select Registry (as some of you mentioned) - where we have to inspect your property and therefore our costs go up or down with the size of your property. Nor are we a state association here to help you navigate vendors, state and local laws, etc. We are a marketing company (sorry I am stating the obvious).
- I don't see see NBC (or whoever it is) offering me a less expensive rate for a 30 second Super Bowl ad because I am a smaller business than Budweiser. No, the rate is the rate based upon the value they (NBC) provides. Same apllies to full page ads in Conde Nast, Travel and Liesure, etc. The rate is the same and it is not based on a customer's ability to afford it, but the value delivered. So I am having a hard time getting my hands around why we should do it differently, Again, I am not trying to in any way draw a liine in the sand (as some of you seem to think I am/have with your posts). I just can't figure it out. If you have the answer or some thoughts, please share them. I am always open to considering better ways.
Frankly, we realize is is not the ideal way to price our services (flat fee for membership by level). But that is how they all do it. We tried doing a Pay Per Click model for innkeepers with Inns.com. It wa svery dair, whoever paid the highest got the best placement, and we only charged for the traffic we delivered. We also have a program for online reservations whereby you only pay the fee when we sell a room for you (although you have to be at least a Bronze member to participate in that additional channel). It seems the fairest way to price our services would be on a lead generation basis (ie. a Pay Per Click). That way we are not penalized if the product i sbad and there are no reservations made. If we deliver a hot lead, we get paid. And it is then the innkeepers job to work with their webmaster to ensure they convert that traffic. That does not compensate us for the reservations that are made directly from our wesbite when consumers pick up the phone (which still clearly happens because our listings are comprehensive enough that folks can see most of everything they need to see on our site and then just call to make a reservation. But I think that would probably be the cleanest/fairest. I don't see us going there because aside from the complexity of changing our entire model (and having a model different from everyone else in the industry), I don't think innkeepers would actaully like it. I very well could be wrong. I will promise you this though - If we changed it, some innkeepers would absolutely be completely and toatlly upset with us and think we were the worst folks on earth. It is unfortuante, but with 7,000 customers, it seems that almost whatever you do will upset some of them Anyway, back to pricing for BBCOM membership by room count, wouldn't that be like you guys pricing your room rates based on people's ability to pay? I mean it seems like it would be like saying your Honeymoon Suite is $495 if you make over $100,000/year, but only $95 if you make under $30,000. I don't think any innkeepers do that (at least none I am aware of).. Maybe you allow them to pay it out over a few payments, but i doubt many innkeepers even do that. We did was spend invest several months of development time to create a system where innkeepers could pay monthly instead of annually. We feel this helps considerably with the innkeeper's cash flow and in many cases enables the membership to pay for itself in a new way way - meaning an innkeeper joins and gets three months free and they get reservations in those first 3 months that pay for their ongoing membership and this pattern continues so innkeepers are able to pay us with money we heloed them make. IThen that takes us back to "really?", $30/mo ($1 a day) seems outrageous to some of you? Here in this thread there has been discussion as to how we price compasred to BBOnline. We realize we are more expensive (and we think in most cases it is justified). But isn't the question whether or not you are getting a positive ROI from us (as would/should ebt eh question for any ad medium - minus the oppoprtunity cost). I realize I may be missing the forest through the tress so honestly please provide "constructive" feedback/input.
Some of you continue to go back and beat us up for raisng the GC rates without enough heads up. We already stated on this board that that was our bad and we pushed the rate increase out. We made a mistake. We are juggling a lot of stuff here. We try, but we will have mis-steps like anyone. I "think" we admit when we make a mistake, but there is no need to keep beating us up on it...? We realize we are not perfect and we want to hear what you guys have to say.
Yes, this is my baby. I apologize (truly) if my defensive reply offended anyone. Just so you know how I feel (in this open communication), I feel like we explain our side of the story with our thoughts, facts,logic and details - it is ofetntimes mocked on this forum and many times completely disregarded (like "Who wants to be bothered with the facts"). I think I even recall someone on this thread saying "enough of the facts" more or less. Maybe I got it wrong. This is a very long thread and covers a multitude of topics. But I feel just as you feel that you can tell me your thoughts, I can share with you what the perception is from our end. It is "We want it cheap. We don't care what you do and all you have done or that you have dropped prices big time at RezOvation. We want cheaper rates and because you charge more than anyone else, you guys are bad."
That's what we hear...
I look forward to an open/fair/honest dialouge.
Sincerely,
Eric.

Eric,
I am not, and have not disputed your right to charge whatever. I actually was not asking for a "sliding" scale. I believe what we were REALLY asking for is a level that is going to give what anyone who is savvy considers a MUST - a link to homepage - that is affordable for the small inns. What you give for Bronze is almost equal to throwing the money down a rathole.
We all know that today's traveler wants instant gratification and wants to see what he is looking to buy and that requires a link to our web site. I do not need 10 photos. I do not need Hot Deals that only go to 1400 people who are not going to use it. I am not interested in GCs other than my own.
What do I want and need for my 3 rooms? I need exposure to the traveling public - and if there is someone who has paid for a higher level I have no problem with them being listed first, they paid for the priviledge, I need my contact info including a link to my web page (that is really what people are going to judge me on, not my bandb page), and yes, I do need at least 1 photo.
You have a "sliding scale" now but it is your levels, not room count. You say it costs more to take care of a 20 room inn than a 3 room - excuse me, but it is usually the reverse, the more you make of something the less it costs. Now do not use this statement to turn around on me. I am asking for a minimum of services at a rate I can afford. You do not (or cannot) provide that. Rather than trying to find a reason that is MY fault for your site not producing revenue, understand that your site is a "scatter gun" and I do not care if you count 3000 hits to my site (my tracker does not show that many) - are you meanung my bandb page? - if they are not coming to my web page or are not booking, it means nothing. An ad in the newspaper may have a lot of looks but if no one picks up the phone, it is just birdcage material (which it is in my opinion).
I do not know what you mean by a "just a 7% increase" when my rate went up over $100 in 2009 than what it was in 2008. I do believe that would be a mite more than 7%.
I wish you well. I just have chosen to say that although I have paid to run with the "big dogs" in the past - the cost of doing it has gone beyond my means and I will see what those little targeted directories can do for me. I will see this year, since my membership runs out before the "season" starts, just how dropping this listing does affect my occupancy. You may have the last laugh after all. But I am going to find out.
.

Eric,
I am not, and have not disputed your right to charge whatever. I actually was not asking for a "sliding" scale. I believe what we were REALLY asking for is a level that is going to give what anyone who is savvy considers a MUST - a link to homepage - that is affordable for the small inns. What you give for Bronze is almost equal to throwing the money down a rathole.
Kathleen -
I tried to explain it fairly and evenly and I laid out all my thoughts and asked for feedback in what I thought was a fair and unoffensive post, but you still seem to be upset. Is there more to the story that I am not aware of?
You are saying you don't want levels based on rooms, but"a level with a link that is affordable for small inns". So keep the levels, but add a link to the Bronze...? I think that is more problematic than changing to pricing based on room counts - which I just spent several hours explaining in detail what my current concerns are with it. We are listening. We have looked at and discussed it several times in the last 6-8 years. We just have been unable to figure out a workable solution that does not devalue our other membership levels across the board. Maybe an analogy would be if an innkeeper owned a really nice property that people loved to stay at regardless of what room they stayed in. And let's assume the rooms were $200-$450/night. By adding a room that sold for $100, this innkeeper may just see the folks that used to stay in the other rooms stay in a less expensive room - they still get the value of staying at the property. Now the innkeeper has lost a lot of revenue because the same guests (and maybe a few new ones came along as well) are all staying in the cheaper rooms, when most of them were absoluteloy fine with the value they received from the more expensive rooms. Maybe not aperfect analogy, but certainly a concern of ours. What can we do to meet smaller property's needs without cannnibalizing our existing sales. Can't forget we are also running a business...
You said, "What you give for Bronze is almost equal to throwing the money down a rathole". Again, that is your opinion. This is where we have a disconnect and I feel you guys do not hear us. I already explained how we have to meet the needs of thousands of innnkeepers, not several, and that hundreds of innkeepers are very happy with the Bronze level and get a good return from it. If they didn't, the market would not support a bronze level and we therefore would not offer it. After my first post in this thread I actually logged back on and added a short postscript to my post because literally as I logged off of Innspiring, I got an email from a very happy Bronze member - so I thought this would help some of you realize that everyone's needs do not match yours, and that as I stated, bronze works very well for some innkeepers. Then someone goes on and slams me and says basically "who cares if it worked for that innkeeper"...??
Maybe it is throwing money down a rathole for you, but to say it is worthless is clearly innacurate or we wouldn't have 600 innkeepers paying us for it.
We all know that today's traveler wants instant gratification and wants to see what he is looking to buy and that requires a link to our web site. I do not need 10 photos. I do not need Hot Deals that only go to 1400 people who are not going to use it. I am not interested in GCs other than my own.
This comment reminds me of a seperate thread on this same forum where an innkeeper was upset someone had asked for a discount because they did not need the breakfast because they were "leaving early". This innkeeper then said the guest can have home-made breakfast, free parking, wine and cheese, and her husband would carry the guest's bags to their room, etc. But the rate is the rate and the innkeeper seemed offended that the potential guest asked for a discount. I am not offended, but how are we different? The things you mentioned are things we have built-in to "our" product and support and they are a part of our rate. We do not offer a "link only" page anymore than any B&Bs I know offer a "bed-only" rate.
What do I want and need for my 3 rooms? I need exposure to the traveling public - and if there is someone who has paid for a higher level I have no problem with them being listed first, they paid for the priviledge, I need my contact info including a link to my web page (that is really what people are going to judge me on, not my bandb page), and yes, I do need at least 1 photo.
I do not agree in the blanket statement that people do not judge you on your BBCOM Page. What do you think affects the click through rate from BBCOM to innkeeper's own sites? It absolutely has an effect as people judge properties every day and minute based on their BBCOM listings. But I hear you. You are saying you would like a simple one-photo no-frills page with a link. So the question is how do you suggest we provide that for you without having all Silver members drop to the Bronze membership level? We understand the value is in the link. That is why that is what we charge more money for listings with the link.
You have a "sliding scale" now but it is your levels, not room count. You say it costs more to take care of a 20 room inn than a 3 room - excuse me, but it is usually the reverse, the more you make of something the less it costs.
Respectfully, I think I have a pretty good handle on what is involved to support innkeepers in this industry, having over 10,000 innkeeper clients between BBCOM/RezO/Weber. In my post I stated that we priced that way in our technology business (RezOvation), not at BBCOM. The cost to support larger properties on technology goes up almost in direct proportion with their size. We basically give RezO GT (The PMS) away for free (down from $595 years ago) so it is not possible for us to make that up on volume, even though our costs to produce an actual disk are certainly lower.
Now do not use this statement to turn around on me. I am asking for a minimum of services at a rate I can afford. You do not (or cannot) provide that. Rather than trying to find a reason that is MY fault for your site not producing revenue, understand that your site is a "scatter gun" and I do not care if you count 3000 hits to my site (my tracker does not show that many) - are you meanung my bandb page? - if they are not coming to my web page or are not booking, it means nothing. An ad in the newspaper may have a lot of looks but if no one picks up the phone, it is just birdcage material (which it is in my opinion).
Sorry. The actual number was 2,847 that we sent from BBCOM to your home page/web page in 2008. So yes, they were coming to your "web page". These are very qualified leads of folks looking for a B&B where you are located. Not that scattered... I am not saying it is your fault. I am simply stating that we have sent you a LOT of traffic and for some reason it is apparently according to you, not converting. That is WAY outside the norms we see so "something" is up. I think your newspaper analogy would be more accurate if you said 2,850 people did pick up the phone and call you, but none of them booked.
I do not know what you mean by a "just a 7% increase" when my rate went up over $100 in 2009 than what it was in 2008. I do believe that would be a mite more than 7%.
Kathleen - This is what I mean when I say it is a two-way street and sometiimes I feel that some innkeepers don't listen. I stated that in the last 9-10 years, on an annualized average increase, we have been at 7%. You are referring to one single membership level for one single year out of the nine - while leaving out years there was zero increase, low increase, etc.... I will caveat that and say that incoudes assigning a $50 value to Inns.com. So if you back that out, more like 8% I guess...
I wish you well. I just have chosen to say that although I have paid to run with the "big dogs" in the past - the cost of doing it has gone beyond my means and I will see what those little targeted directories can do for me. I will see this year, since my membership runs out before the "season" starts, just how dropping this listing does affect my occupancy. You may have the last laugh after all. But I am going to find out.
Your cost in 2009 (as already stated in an email to you for our support team) will actually most likely end up being a few dollars less than you paid us in 2008 (another reason I do not follow the thread and your frustration).
Anyway, Best of luck to you.
Eric

.

Upset? No
Snarky? No
Calm? Yes
At an impass? Yes

 

[JunieBJones (JBJ)]

Kum Ba Yah Y'all

 

[happykeeper]

Kum Ba Yah Y'all.

Gosh- I don't know what to think about all this.
It concerns me that the folks who are taking my money to provide my business with a service want to have equal air time (although sme of it was too long for me to actually read it all at once) on a forum intended for their clients use independent of their service provider.
Although I had a nice chat with John the other day and it was great to be able to explain some things to one of the bosses, I have this nagging sensation that all this counteraction on the forum is forcing the voices of the innkeepers into a box that is considerably smaller than intended. It feels a little funny.
What I am wondering is how tough could it be to just gather in the wayward souls who have fallen through the cracks and help them acheive their goals. Some kind of pilot program or some kind of refund or some kind of something to repair the damage. I thought John did an admirable job in the face of the issues I brought to his attention, but it is reason for pause when the CEO gets on here and publicly blisters his clients. Someone said the other day that it was best left to John and I second that notion.
I think I wrote a fairly pleasant post, but I am looking over my shoulder.

 

[josh]

Dear Innkeepers,
So I took a few days myself to "take a deep breath". Much better!
Let me try and elaborate on some thoughts. I realize we are not working for Kathleen and she is upset and we are losing her business. I think it is unfortunate, and will stand by my comment that I feel an average rate increase of 7% per year over the last 9-10 years is totatlly fair - especially while during that same time period that we doubled our rates, our traffic grew by about 10X. I really do not understand where that is not fair or make sus bad guys. I also do not understand why we are called "slimy" for launching a program that save sinnkeepers $60/year because when it was announced we didn't also say "BTW, our rates increased Jan 1". Our rate increase typically take effect on jan 1. That i snot always. Sometimes rates have not inncreased, sometimes they have been delayed. But to think that some of you guys are upset with us because you feel we should have announced it along with our annual rates, I just feel is unfair. (I do nto expect sympathy here - as some of you will claim - I am tryin got share "my" viewpoint).
I am not going to reply to each and every post in this thread because it is all over the place. But someone in the thread remarked that this is a place for folks to vent". That sounds reasonable (even though there is a seperate area in the forum for "venting". But nionetheless, why is it then not fair for me to vent my frustrations? If we want an open two-way communication channel, (which I do) there seems to be a bit of a double-standard. I have to be able to explain my thoughts/positions without folks condenscendingly sayimg I am just pushing my products. I am completely open to an open dialog with you guys, but if you want to keep it professional, it is a two-way street. We don't need the attacking comments, the "You Go Girl" comments like it is a competition and you are cheering for a victor. I would love nothing more to sit down as a group with all of you and have an open communication about our business.
But the reason John and I are on this board is because we do listen. We are here and actively participating. My perception is that some of you only feel we are "listening" if we actaully implement every change you suggest. That is not practical. We listen. Then we make business decision based on what we feel is the best solution for everyone involved (you guys, potential guests, and us).
Kathleen - I really don't know why you did not see a nice return for your investment. I am truly sorry you did not and I certainly don't fault you for lookinng for other places that may give it to you. I do know by looking at our stats for your listing, that we sent nearly 3,000 folks to your home page from BedandBreakfast.com in the last year. That is what, about twelve cents per user. I don't see how that seems unfair in our pricing. Using some easy conversion stats of 1%, you should have sold nearly 30 reservations because of us. Even if your average res is only 1 night (industry average is 2.3) and your ADR is only $100 (industry average is about $170) - you should have earned about $3,000 from your $350 invesment...? Why didn't you...? I am not sure. It really could be a lot of things. I do know that we have a full timme team fo Membership Consultants that are a toll-free call away that are happy to help you and will run through your listing and member checklist and offer any assistance we can to see how we could possibly increase your conversion. But you have to call them. I wish we could proactively call every member but it is unfortunately just not practical with 7,000 member properties. Like any media purchase (Super Bowl ad, magazine, billboard or newspaper ad) you are buying the visibility and it seems like we delivered on that front. Nonetheless, for whatever reason it did not work and therefore you shoul;d try and find somethinng that may. I am curious if you track your reservations by channel through your booking engine or stat software. Often times, if not most times, it is very hard for an innkeeper to find out where their reservations came form by asking the guest. As was pointed out in this thread, consumers don't remember and they will say your own website when they actually started on a directory and linked through to your hoe page so although they say your home page, they actually found you because of the directory. Not always the case, but the best way to truly track your reservations is to set up your software correctly to really "track" them. best of luck to you and let us know if there is anythignn we can do to help.
A few of you guys talk about the price alot - and how we are out to get you But as I mentioned above (and we have already spent a lot of time on tis in previous threads), our annual rate increases over the last 9-10 years has averaged 7% while our traffic has increased by an order of magnitude. We also now include Inns.com so it is no longer even the same. And this year, we aunched the ratings credit which basically keeps the rates for Bronze and Silver members the same (if not a little drop) year over year from 2008 to 2009. The review credit program applies to everyone immediately - not only to folks on the 2009 pricing. So folks that renewed/joined in December (1 month ago) are also now saving $5 every month off their membership when they get a review. It was not a new program tied to the rate increase - again, why we didn't mention our standard annual rate adjustment when announcing it. No the rates didn't go up from Novemeber as someone exclaimed. Our new 2009 rates went into effect. if you joined/paid in November, that will be your rate until next November. We lock in your rates, we do not raise them mid-membership. "That" wouldn't be fair.
For any of you that use our RezOvation products and services, you will see that in the last 4 years we have dropped the price of our PMS (from $595 to $195) all while completely reinvesting in it and rewritinng it from the ground up with the weekly feedback/input from a panel of 20 innkeepers, on the latest and greatest programming language, using a standard and robust SQL databse (not some propriatery one that may cause you problems down the road), becomeing the only Micorsoft certified provider inthe space, and many other thinigs. We also dropped the price of the booking engine from 5% per res to a low monthly fee with no commissions that is about 80% less than it was 4-5 years ago. In general, technology costs have decreased over time, and we drop our prices accordingly. On the media side of the business (BBCOM), the cost to get traffic has done nothing but increase. Fortunately, our exposure has also considearbly increased and therefore the value we provide has increased. And therefore we have raised those prices.
Regarding different rates for different size properties, we have considered it many times. We try to remain open to new ideas and I think we actuaslly implement many of them with our team. My thoughts on this are:
- That makes sense in a technology product (see paragrpah above) where prices drop and where the cost to support/maintain a technology scales with the size of the property (ie. it clearly takes us more of everything to support a 20 room property using our RezOvation Bookinng Engine, than it takes to support and maintain a 3 room property. Therefore our prices reflect that.
- The majority of traffic/reservations goes to the folks at the top of a search result (be it Google, BBCOM, or your chamber). It seems if would not be fair for a 12 room B&B paying $500/year to be below4 smaller B&Bs with 1-4 rooms because the smaller B&Bs were able to buy the same spot for $200. I really do not see that as fair. I am open to discuss this and I am trying to understand your point so please keep the dialouge going. But we are not Select Registry (as some of you mentioned) - where we have to inspect your property and therefore our costs go up or down with the size of your property. Nor are we a state association here to help you navigate vendors, state and local laws, etc. We are a marketing company (sorry I am stating the obvious).
- I don't see see NBC (or whoever it is) offering me a less expensive rate for a 30 second Super Bowl ad because I am a smaller business than Budweiser. No, the rate is the rate based upon the value they (NBC) provides. Same apllies to full page ads in Conde Nast, Travel and Liesure, etc. The rate is the same and it is not based on a customer's ability to afford it, but the value delivered. So I am having a hard time getting my hands around why we should do it differently, Again, I am not trying to in any way draw a liine in the sand (as some of you seem to think I am/have with your posts). I just can't figure it out. If you have the answer or some thoughts, please share them. I am always open to considering better ways.
Frankly, we realize is is not the ideal way to price our services (flat fee for membership by level). But that is how they all do it. We tried doing a Pay Per Click model for innkeepers with Inns.com. It wa svery dair, whoever paid the highest got the best placement, and we only charged for the traffic we delivered. We also have a program for online reservations whereby you only pay the fee when we sell a room for you (although you have to be at least a Bronze member to participate in that additional channel). It seems the fairest way to price our services would be on a lead generation basis (ie. a Pay Per Click). That way we are not penalized if the product i sbad and there are no reservations made. If we deliver a hot lead, we get paid. And it is then the innkeepers job to work with their webmaster to ensure they convert that traffic. That does not compensate us for the reservations that are made directly from our wesbite when consumers pick up the phone (which still clearly happens because our listings are comprehensive enough that folks can see most of everything they need to see on our site and then just call to make a reservation. But I think that would probably be the cleanest/fairest. I don't see us going there because aside from the complexity of changing our entire model (and having a model different from everyone else in the industry), I don't think innkeepers would actaully like it. I very well could be wrong. I will promise you this though - If we changed it, some innkeepers would absolutely be completely and toatlly upset with us and think we were the worst folks on earth. It is unfortuante, but with 7,000 customers, it seems that almost whatever you do will upset some of them Anyway, back to pricing for BBCOM membership by room count, wouldn't that be like you guys pricing your room rates based on people's ability to pay? I mean it seems like it would be like saying your Honeymoon Suite is $495 if you make over $100,000/year, but only $95 if you make under $30,000. I don't think any innkeepers do that (at least none I am aware of).. Maybe you allow them to pay it out over a few payments, but i doubt many innkeepers even do that. We did was spend invest several months of development time to create a system where innkeepers could pay monthly instead of annually. We feel this helps considerably with the innkeeper's cash flow and in many cases enables the membership to pay for itself in a new way way - meaning an innkeeper joins and gets three months free and they get reservations in those first 3 months that pay for their ongoing membership and this pattern continues so innkeepers are able to pay us with money we heloed them make. IThen that takes us back to "really?", $30/mo ($1 a day) seems outrageous to some of you? Here in this thread there has been discussion as to how we price compasred to BBOnline. We realize we are more expensive (and we think in most cases it is justified). But isn't the question whether or not you are getting a positive ROI from us (as would/should ebt eh question for any ad medium - minus the oppoprtunity cost). I realize I may be missing the forest through the tress so honestly please provide "constructive" feedback/input.
Some of you continue to go back and beat us up for raisng the GC rates without enough heads up. We already stated on this board that that was our bad and we pushed the rate increase out. We made a mistake. We are juggling a lot of stuff here. We try, but we will have mis-steps like anyone. I "think" we admit when we make a mistake, but there is no need to keep beating us up on it...? We realize we are not perfect and we want to hear what you guys have to say.
Yes, this is my baby. I apologize (truly) if my defensive reply offended anyone. Just so you know how I feel (in this open communication), I feel like we explain our side of the story with our thoughts, facts,logic and details - it is ofetntimes mocked on this forum and many times completely disregarded (like "Who wants to be bothered with the facts"). I think I even recall someone on this thread saying "enough of the facts" more or less. Maybe I got it wrong. This is a very long thread and covers a multitude of topics. But I feel just as you feel that you can tell me your thoughts, I can share with you what the perception is from our end. It is "We want it cheap. We don't care what you do and all you have done or that you have dropped prices big time at RezOvation. We want cheaper rates and because you charge more than anyone else, you guys are bad."
That's what we hear...
I look forward to an open/fair/honest dialouge.
Sincerely,
Eric.

Eric,
I am not, and have not disputed your right to charge whatever. I actually was not asking for a "sliding" scale. I believe what we were REALLY asking for is a level that is going to give what anyone who is savvy considers a MUST - a link to homepage - that is affordable for the small inns. What you give for Bronze is almost equal to throwing the money down a rathole.
We all know that today's traveler wants instant gratification and wants to see what he is looking to buy and that requires a link to our web site. I do not need 10 photos. I do not need Hot Deals that only go to 1400 people who are not going to use it. I am not interested in GCs other than my own.
What do I want and need for my 3 rooms? I need exposure to the traveling public - and if there is someone who has paid for a higher level I have no problem with them being listed first, they paid for the priviledge, I need my contact info including a link to my web page (that is really what people are going to judge me on, not my bandb page), and yes, I do need at least 1 photo.
You have a "sliding scale" now but it is your levels, not room count. You say it costs more to take care of a 20 room inn than a 3 room - excuse me, but it is usually the reverse, the more you make of something the less it costs. Now do not use this statement to turn around on me. I am asking for a minimum of services at a rate I can afford. You do not (or cannot) provide that. Rather than trying to find a reason that is MY fault for your site not producing revenue, understand that your site is a "scatter gun" and I do not care if you count 3000 hits to my site (my tracker does not show that many) - are you meanung my bandb page? - if they are not coming to my web page or are not booking, it means nothing. An ad in the newspaper may have a lot of looks but if no one picks up the phone, it is just birdcage material (which it is in my opinion).
I do not know what you mean by a "just a 7% increase" when my rate went up over $100 in 2009 than what it was in 2008. I do believe that would be a mite more than 7%.
I wish you well. I just have chosen to say that although I have paid to run with the "big dogs" in the past - the cost of doing it has gone beyond my means and I will see what those little targeted directories can do for me. I will see this year, since my membership runs out before the "season" starts, just how dropping this listing does affect my occupancy. You may have the last laugh after all. But I am going to find out.
.

Eric,
I am not, and have not disputed your right to charge whatever. I actually was not asking for a "sliding" scale. I believe what we were REALLY asking for is a level that is going to give what anyone who is savvy considers a MUST - a link to homepage - that is affordable for the small inns. What you give for Bronze is almost equal to throwing the money down a rathole.
Kathleen -
I tried to explain it fairly and evenly and I laid out all my thoughts and asked for feedback in what I thought was a fair and unoffensive post, but you still seem to be upset. Is there more to the story that I am not aware of?
You are saying you don't want levels based on rooms, but"a level with a link that is affordable for small inns". So keep the levels, but add a link to the Bronze...? I think that is more problematic than changing to pricing based on room counts - which I just spent several hours explaining in detail what my current concerns are with it. We are listening. We have looked at and discussed it several times in the last 6-8 years. We just have been unable to figure out a workable solution that does not devalue our other membership levels across the board. Maybe an analogy would be if an innkeeper owned a really nice property that people loved to stay at regardless of what room they stayed in. And let's assume the rooms were $200-$450/night. By adding a room that sold for $100, this innkeeper may just see the folks that used to stay in the other rooms stay in a less expensive room - they still get the value of staying at the property. Now the innkeeper has lost a lot of revenue because the same guests (and maybe a few new ones came along as well) are all staying in the cheaper rooms, when most of them were absoluteloy fine with the value they received from the more expensive rooms. Maybe not aperfect analogy, but certainly a concern of ours. What can we do to meet smaller property's needs without cannnibalizing our existing sales. Can't forget we are also running a business...
You said, "What you give for Bronze is almost equal to throwing the money down a rathole". Again, that is your opinion. This is where we have a disconnect and I feel you guys do not hear us. I already explained how we have to meet the needs of thousands of innnkeepers, not several, and that hundreds of innkeepers are very happy with the Bronze level and get a good return from it. If they didn't, the market would not support a bronze level and we therefore would not offer it. After my first post in this thread I actually logged back on and added a short postscript to my post because literally as I logged off of Innspiring, I got an email from a very happy Bronze member - so I thought this would help some of you realize that everyone's needs do not match yours, and that as I stated, bronze works very well for some innkeepers. Then someone goes on and slams me and says basically "who cares if it worked for that innkeeper"...??
Maybe it is throwing money down a rathole for you, but to say it is worthless is clearly innacurate or we wouldn't have 600 innkeepers paying us for it.
We all know that today's traveler wants instant gratification and wants to see what he is looking to buy and that requires a link to our web site. I do not need 10 photos. I do not need Hot Deals that only go to 1400 people who are not going to use it. I am not interested in GCs other than my own.
This comment reminds me of a seperate thread on this same forum where an innkeeper was upset someone had asked for a discount because they did not need the breakfast because they were "leaving early". This innkeeper then said the guest can have home-made breakfast, free parking, wine and cheese, and her husband would carry the guest's bags to their room, etc. But the rate is the rate and the innkeeper seemed offended that the potential guest asked for a discount. I am not offended, but how are we different? The things you mentioned are things we have built-in to "our" product and support and they are a part of our rate. We do not offer a "link only" page anymore than any B&Bs I know offer a "bed-only" rate.
What do I want and need for my 3 rooms? I need exposure to the traveling public - and if there is someone who has paid for a higher level I have no problem with them being listed first, they paid for the priviledge, I need my contact info including a link to my web page (that is really what people are going to judge me on, not my bandb page), and yes, I do need at least 1 photo.
I do not agree in the blanket statement that people do not judge you on your BBCOM Page. What do you think affects the click through rate from BBCOM to innkeeper's own sites? It absolutely has an effect as people judge properties every day and minute based on their BBCOM listings. But I hear you. You are saying you would like a simple one-photo no-frills page with a link. So the question is how do you suggest we provide that for you without having all Silver members drop to the Bronze membership level? We understand the value is in the link. That is why that is what we charge more money for listings with the link.
You have a "sliding scale" now but it is your levels, not room count. You say it costs more to take care of a 20 room inn than a 3 room - excuse me, but it is usually the reverse, the more you make of something the less it costs.
Respectfully, I think I have a pretty good handle on what is involved to support innkeepers in this industry, having over 10,000 innkeeper clients between BBCOM/RezO/Weber. In my post I stated that we priced that way in our technology business (RezOvation), not at BBCOM. The cost to support larger properties on technology goes up almost in direct proportion with their size. We basically give RezO GT (The PMS) away for free (down from $595 years ago) so it is not possible for us to make that up on volume, even though our costs to produce an actual disk are certainly lower.
Now do not use this statement to turn around on me. I am asking for a minimum of services at a rate I can afford. You do not (or cannot) provide that. Rather than trying to find a reason that is MY fault for your site not producing revenue, understand that your site is a "scatter gun" and I do not care if you count 3000 hits to my site (my tracker does not show that many) - are you meanung my bandb page? - if they are not coming to my web page or are not booking, it means nothing. An ad in the newspaper may have a lot of looks but if no one picks up the phone, it is just birdcage material (which it is in my opinion).
Sorry. The actual number was 2,847 that we sent from BBCOM to your home page/web page in 2008. So yes, they were coming to your "web page". These are very qualified leads of folks looking for a B&B where you are located. Not that scattered... I am not saying it is your fault. I am simply stating that we have sent you a LOT of traffic and for some reason it is apparently according to you, not converting. That is WAY outside the norms we see so "something" is up. I think your newspaper analogy would be more accurate if you said 2,850 people did pick up the phone and call you, but none of them booked.
I do not know what you mean by a "just a 7% increase" when my rate went up over $100 in 2009 than what it was in 2008. I do believe that would be a mite more than 7%.
Kathleen - This is what I mean when I say it is a two-way street and sometiimes I feel that some innkeepers don't listen. I stated that in the last 9-10 years, on an annualized average increase, we have been at 7%. You are referring to one single membership level for one single year out of the nine - while leaving out years there was zero increase, low increase, etc.... I will caveat that and say that incoudes assigning a $50 value to Inns.com. So if you back that out, more like 8% I guess...
I wish you well. I just have chosen to say that although I have paid to run with the "big dogs" in the past - the cost of doing it has gone beyond my means and I will see what those little targeted directories can do for me. I will see this year, since my membership runs out before the "season" starts, just how dropping this listing does affect my occupancy. You may have the last laugh after all. But I am going to find out.
Your cost in 2009 (as already stated in an email to you for our support team) will actually most likely end up being a few dollars less than you paid us in 2008 (another reason I do not follow the thread and your frustration).
Anyway, Best of luck to you.
Eric

.

Eric,
I have been reading this thread for a while now and respect all persons views.
I can certainly understand every ones points of view! I do believe that a lot of these directories can be expensive, But at the same time I pay them and expect a Miracle. I need to get a little bit on the stick and call your company and see what I can do to better serve my business and also improve my stats.
I have 3 properties in Seattle and Its VERY expensive to operate these, with Taxes, Staff, Insurance, Overhead , Mortgages and all that stuff. I raised my prices last year and my business dropped by nearly 35%. My rate increase was like $5-20 a room, My prices were way low for a long time, Now just to put out there only 1 is a B&B and the other 2 are extended stay/Vacation rentals.
When guests call for instance and ask now for a discount, I usually ask why they need it lower then what I advertise and if they give me a lame reason or say "well everything there is expensive" I usually explain that I offer "Free onsite Parking" Free WiFi" Free coffee,Tea and Hot Chocolate" Stuff like that, which unless your staying in podunk ville at a *ed roof inn costs a fortune in downtown Seattle where the tax rate is almost double then what I charge, Parking is at least $25 a night and Higher, some New Highrise is being built and you will be lucky if you can sleep a full 8 hours, stuff like that.
I also mention in order to have Beautiful, CLEAN houses and grounds, I pay my staff well, this also insures me having them here for the 4 years almost I have done business.
I then sometimes explain what goes into all this and what it takes to opearate this, when I am done I ask if they still need that discount?? 95% Book at full price! I have lowered some room prices and kept others the same. I feel I have a Great Product and the bottom line is I feel that " WHAT I charge is what makes my business work for me and pays the bills" I do not think sometimes that people always understand what it costs to operate a company along with staff, data bases, servers stuff like that.
I am grateful to be alive, Have the ability to live in a country where I can operate a Business, Be able to have all these people stay here, do business with others and support them and there family's.
I am grateful to live in a country and own a Business where there is not a war going on or constant bombing or Air Raids, Where I am not suffering from Hunger or sub standard living conditions, Where people are dying in record numbers every day because of sickness.
Now granted there are all kinds of obstacles daily that we all face and have faced, But the question is to all are you GRATEFUL??? ARE YOU BLESSED? HAS YOUR BUSINESS BETTERED YOUR SITUATION?? ...-))) I know I am Blessed and I am grateful to all who have got me to where I am today!!
I also understand that the economy is different and causing strain on people and there pocketbooks and also we are in the middle of winter, But its Time to pay it forward!!
ERIC, can a sponsorship fund be set up so that we can donate for innkeepers that are new or can not afford the higher fees.?? I would be more then Happy to give to help another Innkeeper out!!
Lastly Eric, Thanks for having an amazing staff, John, Andrew and Ben!
I am graetful for your company and Grateful for all that you do!~!
Thanks!! Happy Prosperous New Year!
Josh
www.innharmonyguesthouse.com

 

[Eric Goldreyer]

Kum Ba Yah Y'all.

Gosh- I don't know what to think about all this.
It concerns me that the folks who are taking my money to provide my business with a service want to have equal air time (although sme of it was too long for me to actually read it all at once) on a forum intended for their clients use independent of their service provider.
Although I had a nice chat with John the other day and it was great to be able to explain some things to one of the bosses, I have this nagging sensation that all this counteraction on the forum is forcing the voices of the innkeepers into a box that is considerably smaller than intended. It feels a little funny.
What I am wondering is how tough could it be to just gather in the wayward souls who have fallen through the cracks and help them acheive their goals. Some kind of pilot program or some kind of refund or some kind of something to repair the damage. I thought John did an admirable job in the face of the issues I brought to his attention, but it is reason for pause when the CEO gets on here and publicly blisters his clients. Someone said the other day that it was best left to John and I second that notion.
I think I wrote a fairly pleasant post, but I am looking over my shoulder.
.

OK.... I guess I am not sure how to proceed either. I am concerned that it bothers you to try and have a truly open two-way dicsussion. I just don't see how it could occur any other way. I am open/willing to talk on the phone/email offline or as I stated, even sit down with the group of you. I am not out to get anyone and am doing my best to provide a valueable service this industry needs - so we can have open two-way communication. Are you saying I am out of line for pointing out that bronze membership IS valueable to some folks? I truly want to know where I am missing it. Am I out of line because I am trying to give you guys our point of view?
I thought the best way to work through things was to get the details out and discuss them logically with facts and see how to move forward. We keep sayig that we understand folks leaving BBCOM if we are not delivering a fair ROI (and we say we have told innkeepers this for years now). But it seems fair that we point out incorrect information.
Please help me understand what you mean (however you prefer to contact me). Where/when/how did I blister someone? I am trying to have open honest communication with you guys. It seems however, that whatever I say, some of you don't want to hear it (whatever "it" is)...
I hope to hear more from you.
Eric

 

[swirt]

Kum Ba Yah Y'all.

Gosh- I don't know what to think about all this.
It concerns me that the folks who are taking my money to provide my business with a service want to have equal air time (although sme of it was too long for me to actually read it all at once) on a forum intended for their clients use independent of their service provider.
Although I had a nice chat with John the other day and it was great to be able to explain some things to one of the bosses, I have this nagging sensation that all this counteraction on the forum is forcing the voices of the innkeepers into a box that is considerably smaller than intended. It feels a little funny.
What I am wondering is how tough could it be to just gather in the wayward souls who have fallen through the cracks and help them acheive their goals. Some kind of pilot program or some kind of refund or some kind of something to repair the damage. I thought John did an admirable job in the face of the issues I brought to his attention, but it is reason for pause when the CEO gets on here and publicly blisters his clients. Someone said the other day that it was best left to John and I second that notion.
I think I wrote a fairly pleasant post, but I am looking over my shoulder.
.

OK.... I guess I am not sure how to proceed either. I am concerned that it bothers you to try and have a truly open two-way dicsussion. I just don't see how it could occur any other way. I am open/willing to talk on the phone/email offline or as I stated, even sit down with the group of you. I am not out to get anyone and am doing my best to provide a valueable service this industry needs - so we can have open two-way communication. Are you saying I am out of line for pointing out that bronze membership IS valueable to some folks? I truly want to know where I am missing it. Am I out of line because I am trying to give you guys our point of view?
I thought the best way to work through things was to get the details out and discuss them logically with facts and see how to move forward. We keep sayig that we understand folks leaving BBCOM if we are not delivering a fair ROI (and we say we have told innkeepers this for years now). But it seems fair that we point out incorrect information.
Please help me understand what you mean (however you prefer to contact me). Where/when/how did I blister someone? I am trying to have open honest communication with you guys. It seems however, that whatever I say, some of you don't want to hear it (whatever "it" is)...
I hope to hear more from you.
Eric
.

It seems however, that whatever I say, some of you don't want to hear it (whatever "it" is)...

I am sure if you said something like, "In light of the currently crappy economy, we are offering a one year discount of 15% on a bandb.com silver listing because we are all in this together," people would listen.

 

[happykeeper]

Kum Ba Yah Y'all.

Gosh- I don't know what to think about all this.
It concerns me that the folks who are taking my money to provide my business with a service want to have equal air time (although sme of it was too long for me to actually read it all at once) on a forum intended for their clients use independent of their service provider.
Although I had a nice chat with John the other day and it was great to be able to explain some things to one of the bosses, I have this nagging sensation that all this counteraction on the forum is forcing the voices of the innkeepers into a box that is considerably smaller than intended. It feels a little funny.
What I am wondering is how tough could it be to just gather in the wayward souls who have fallen through the cracks and help them acheive their goals. Some kind of pilot program or some kind of refund or some kind of something to repair the damage. I thought John did an admirable job in the face of the issues I brought to his attention, but it is reason for pause when the CEO gets on here and publicly blisters his clients. Someone said the other day that it was best left to John and I second that notion.
I think I wrote a fairly pleasant post, but I am looking over my shoulder.
.

OK.... I guess I am not sure how to proceed either. I am concerned that it bothers you to try and have a truly open two-way dicsussion. I just don't see how it could occur any other way. I am open/willing to talk on the phone/email offline or as I stated, even sit down with the group of you. I am not out to get anyone and am doing my best to provide a valueable service this industry needs - so we can have open two-way communication. Are you saying I am out of line for pointing out that bronze membership IS valueable to some folks? I truly want to know where I am missing it. Am I out of line because I am trying to give you guys our point of view?
I thought the best way to work through things was to get the details out and discuss them logically with facts and see how to move forward. We keep sayig that we understand folks leaving BBCOM if we are not delivering a fair ROI (and we say we have told innkeepers this for years now). But it seems fair that we point out incorrect information.
Please help me understand what you mean (however you prefer to contact me). Where/when/how did I blister someone? I am trying to have open honest communication with you guys. It seems however, that whatever I say, some of you don't want to hear it (whatever "it" is)...
I hope to hear more from you.
Eric
.

I think my first statement was really just saying that when I signed up on Innspiring, I took note of what it says at the top.. where innkeepers belong... and expected we would have an opportunity to share our ideas, voice concerns, and compare what is out there in the industry the serves us. Having you on here forcing us to defend ourselves for saying how we feel about things is not so great, IMO.
I have been having some great communication with John. It has been an open two-way chat which was quite productive. So, yes, it is blistering your client/customer to suggest they are not interested in having reasonable two-way communication.
The rest of your email seems directed elsewhere, as I have'nt had a lot to say about the actual issue of cost and levels and the like. Heaven help me if I tack on an actual opinion about B&B.com.

 

[Eric Goldreyer]

Kum Ba Yah Y'all.

Gosh- I don't know what to think about all this.
It concerns me that the folks who are taking my money to provide my business with a service want to have equal air time (although sme of it was too long for me to actually read it all at once) on a forum intended for their clients use independent of their service provider.
Although I had a nice chat with John the other day and it was great to be able to explain some things to one of the bosses, I have this nagging sensation that all this counteraction on the forum is forcing the voices of the innkeepers into a box that is considerably smaller than intended. It feels a little funny.
What I am wondering is how tough could it be to just gather in the wayward souls who have fallen through the cracks and help them acheive their goals. Some kind of pilot program or some kind of refund or some kind of something to repair the damage. I thought John did an admirable job in the face of the issues I brought to his attention, but it is reason for pause when the CEO gets on here and publicly blisters his clients. Someone said the other day that it was best left to John and I second that notion.
I think I wrote a fairly pleasant post, but I am looking over my shoulder.
.

OK.... I guess I am not sure how to proceed either. I am concerned that it bothers you to try and have a truly open two-way dicsussion. I just don't see how it could occur any other way. I am open/willing to talk on the phone/email offline or as I stated, even sit down with the group of you. I am not out to get anyone and am doing my best to provide a valueable service this industry needs - so we can have open two-way communication. Are you saying I am out of line for pointing out that bronze membership IS valueable to some folks? I truly want to know where I am missing it. Am I out of line because I am trying to give you guys our point of view?
I thought the best way to work through things was to get the details out and discuss them logically with facts and see how to move forward. We keep sayig that we understand folks leaving BBCOM if we are not delivering a fair ROI (and we say we have told innkeepers this for years now). But it seems fair that we point out incorrect information.
Please help me understand what you mean (however you prefer to contact me). Where/when/how did I blister someone? I am trying to have open honest communication with you guys. It seems however, that whatever I say, some of you don't want to hear it (whatever "it" is)...
I hope to hear more from you.
Eric
.

I think my first statement was really just saying that when I signed up on Innspiring, I took note of what it says at the top.. where innkeepers belong... and expected we would have an opportunity to share our ideas, voice concerns, and compare what is out there in the industry the serves us. Having you on here forcing us to defend ourselves for saying how we feel about things is not so great, IMO.
I have been having some great communication with John. It has been an open two-way chat which was quite productive. So, yes, it is blistering your client/customer to suggest they are not interested in having reasonable two-way communication.
The rest of your email seems directed elsewhere, as I have'nt had a lot to say about the actual issue of cost and levels and the like. Heaven help me if I tack on an actual opinion about B&B.com.
.

KNKBNB,
Good point . I can see where I am being too defensive. My apologies. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. It is tough for me to hear when I feel like we have done so much for this industry.... only to then have some folks bash us. Tough. But that's business...
Eric
PS. For what it's worth, we are looking at some possible changes that we think smaller properties would appreciate. We should be able to determine if this is a workable solution soon and would hope to be in a position to make some announcements by middle of next week if so.